Kanji for Zekken?

[Suiken]

I came across a problem somebody here might be able to help me with. One of these days I was talk with a japanese kendo-collegue and was talking about zekken. He said that they call it tareneemu in Japanese. I was very suprised because I always thought they call it was japanese. In catalogs I saw also tareneemu but also zekken written in katakana. Still, tareneemu must be a modern expression because it means tare-name.

Does anybody have a idea if there used to be Kanji or where the word comes from?

[Cool Cat]

The word Zekken seems to come from the German word Decken. I don't speak German so I can't help with the direct translation. The katakana is ゼッケン. I think it means identification as the Japanese also use the word for the number on an athlete's jumper. Maybe someone from Germany can help?

Cheers

[Suiken]

I am German and I don't know a noun Decken. Decke means blanket. Decken as a verb can mean a lot of things but I doubt that it is this word is the origine of zekken. However, some Dojo in Germany call it Tare-Säckchen (little bag)

[Cool Cat]

My Japanese dictionary also says that Decken is the plural of Decke. Maybe the meaning is blanket as in cover?

[Suiken]

You japanese dictionary? Do you mean a German dictionary? What did you look up? Anyway you are right about the plural, thank you for your efford. Still, I am very very convinced. I might ask some older Kendoka how they used to call it when they were little.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Zekken is definitely not Japanese. One other word that is used is nafuda.

[crabbi]

You japanese dictionary? Do you mean a German dictionary? What did you look up? Anyway you are right about the plural, thank you for your efford. Still, I am very very convinced. I might ask some older Kendoka how they used to call it when they were little.

Hmmm... if indeed Zekken is not Japanese in origin then your 'Tare-Säckchen' seems a logical and convincing derivation... with the 'umlaut' over the 'a', this would be pronounced 'Zekkschen'... but if the diminutive 'sch' were ommited then it would be 'Säcken' pronounced 'Zekken'... Sounds good to me...

[Suiken]

Indeed 'Säckchen' is very close and it could be an explanation, but somehow it is an absurd idea for me, that we use a Japanese loanword with is actually a loanword from German in Germany, if you know what I mean.
Completly correct japanese spelling would be ゼックヒェン or ゼックヘン, but it could have turned to ゼッケン after some time.
I will try to find out more.

[Koffein]

i think i read somewhere that Zekken comes from the German word "Zeichen" which means "sign"..

[Cool Cat]

I was just out drinking with my Japanese customer and he said that Zekken is a word used by older people in Japan. Not just for Kendo. The same meaning in Japanese Kanji is 背番号（せばんごう）which means a player's number. This still doesn't answer the origin and true meaning of zekken but I think we are getting close.....

[ender84567]

i highly doubt with the japaneese being so xenophobic they would borrow a german word.

[Halcyon]

i highly doubt with the japaneese being so xenophobic they would borrow a german word.

Have you ever listened to modern Japanese? You can almost understand it without knowing a word of Japanese because there are so many borrowed foreign words! Lately, the borrowed words have mostly been from English, but remember that Japan had close ties with Germany going back more than a century, especially in the field of engineering and science, in which Germany was considered the world leader at the time. Before English became the dominant lingua franca, my understanding is that Japanese students in engineering and the sciences had to take German as their second language.

[ShinKenshi]

I agree. There definitely are words in Japanese that are or German origin, particularly in sciences. For example, the word for "x-rays" in Japanese is レントゲンtaken after Wilhelm Roentgen who discovered them. Not of German origin though, here's another example of foreign words taken as Japanese. The rickshaw is called 人力車, "Jin-rikisha" (just with "jin" in the beginning to denote that a person pulls it and I might be wrong about the last two kanji). With modern Japanese, words like パソコン for PC are common place.

[walnut]

One thing to consider is that Japan borrowed a lot of things from Germany (system of government, military strategy, etc.) during the Meiji Restoration. Perhaps it's an antiquated German word or usage that has lived on in Japan?

[Kendo Schmo]

Yeah, Japan has borrowed quite a few words from German. Arubaito is another one, taken from the German "Arbeit," which means to work. Arubaito is used in Japan to describe a part time job, I think.

Interesting though that something used in kendo got a loanword description. Wonder how that happened?