Middle East again

[Kitsune]

Is it going to end some day?

[samurai999]

Not as long as there is religion involved.

[Metsuke]

Is it going to end some day?

One day the world will end. Also the oil in the middle east will run out eventually, then most western powers will no longer have vested interests in the region. I like to hope that conversion of vehicles to ethanol or some other alternate renewable fuel source, will help us western nations to stay out of the political arena of the region. Sadly that would leave Israel on their own, but I have issue with defending any nation committing acts of terror.

Matthew Denton said in a forum I was reading that, People in Palestine and people in Israel both suffer, both are victims while both must share responsibility for this horrible epidemic of violence for they can't see the common humanity they both share. I believe the epicenter for the entire scourge of terrorism is Israel and Palestine and this war will not end until peace forged between these two people.

For all our little differences, our commonalities are far more important. We cannot dehumanize another without dehumanizing ourselves. If you can't see the value of another's life then we admit there is no value to our own.

This war must end as soon as possible for many are going to pay the price, a price that is far to high.

And I feel he makes a valid point. Some Palestinians support suicide bomber attacks in the heart of Israel, they cannot see the value in the lives of the people they perceive as their enemy. So Palestinian zealots attack Israel, and Israel responds with a military attack against Palestine but this only continues the violence which claims many lives. Attack and counter-attack, an endless cycle that will not be broken until one side stops the violence.

Terror is terror, these are people who have been in the region as long or longer than the Jews, I don't like my next door neighbor, but I don't send suicide bombers to his house, or send out air strikes destroying half of our neighborhood. I know this is an extravagant example, but the core point stands, they need to learn to get along, how long before this turns into an ethnic cleansing, or acts of genocide begin to occur? You would imagine that with WWII so close in memory and the Nazi solution to ethnic diversity, Israel would be a bit more sensitive on this issue trying to resolve this in a better way. In my opinion if Israel wants to maintain the Moral High Ground (so to speak) then they need to practice what they preach. I understand that the situation requires response, but this is a very unbalanced conflict with Israel wielding a modern army, and air force, what does Palestine have to counter Israel militarily? It's like farmers fighting Samurai, so what can they do? Exactly what they do, they fight with what they have.

I don't think either side has any moral high ground to stand on anymore, they both have blood on their hands.

[Kitsune]

Not as long as there is religion involved.

Don't think religion has something to do with this this time, not all Palestinians are from islam. I think the problem is economic like Metsuke said.

[verissimus]

Not as long as there's oil involved.

I'm not too enthusiastic about ethanol either. As demand spikes, what then? Divert land from food crops to cash crops?

[samurai999]

Don't think religion has something to do with this this time, not all Palestinians are from islam. I think the problem is economic like Metsuke said.

no but it will turn into one as it escalates...

[Kitsune]

I have the same fear, but for now it's just oil and soldiers... You think US will do the same thing as in Irak?

[samurai999]

I have the same fear, but for now it's just oil and soldiers... You think US will do the same thing as in Irak?

I think the US's hands are tied on this one. We don't want to step the wrong way because giving blatant support to Israel (which i think is what will happen if we choose sides) will very likely give Al Qaeda the fuel they need to recruit more terrorists. In addition, we don't support Hezbollah and Hamas as they are on our terrorist groups list. The only thing we can do is to show verbal encouragement to get compromises from both sides.

[T.Lee]

i agree with W.

"What they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over,"

[Metsuke]

I'm not too enthusiastic about ethanol either. As demand spikes, what then? Divert land from food crops to cash crops?

No, some points about corn you might not know.
It dosen't require rotation of fields as often as other crops.
It requires less nuetrent rich soil.
Much like hemp (which also could be used to make a cleaner burning fuel sorce than petrlium) can grow in most any earth.
And one last thing, the US government pays subsadies here not to grow corn.

You think US will do the same thing as in Irak?
Honestly, most of the reason that Israel has the military machine they do, is in no small part because of the US. To choose to back anyone else now against Israel would be kind of like backing the Ayatollah Khomeini after spending so much time and money to support the Shah, who was in the US's eyes the lesser of two evils. Our support of Israel even when we know what they are doing is wrong is a large part of why the US is so unpopular in the middle east in the first place, well that and what our government will do to protect the oil supply.

Quote from Dune, "The Spice must flow" (just trade spice for oil and that's it in a nut shell)

[ahmed61086]

I am a Palistinian Muslim, lets just put that in the open so you can understand my posistion in this matter.

One thing is, you can't call the Palistinians and the Israelis as neighbors, this is a little rediculous. Let us go through the history a little bit. They Jews came to palistine as refugees with nowhere to go, so the Palistianian people took them in like brothers, and treated them as equals, not second class citizens. Then when these refugees got on their feet, they raped, murdered, and looted the palistian people. They took their country, their lives, and their pride.

Let us make a parable. The palistians were the houseowners, and the Jews were homeless. So the the Palistians took the homeless jews into their house, fed them, clothed them, gave them a Job, and then the Jews Murdered the Father in his sleep, raped the mother and daughters, then threw the sons out(and now the sons want justice). And then they took the house for themselves(while all the people in the neiborhood ignored it). So how could the Jews be considered the victims, or be called neighbors? They are illegally occupying a land which belongs to the Palistinians, and while doing so, make the palistians Second class citizens, and oppress and terrorize them everyday.

Sure, the israelis are suffering, but so do criminals when they go to prison. I know I am going to get flamed, but hey, the truth hurts.

The only way there will be peace in palistine, is if the palistinian people get their country back. Im sorry to say it, but the people wont be satisfied with any less.

[verissimus]

No, some points about corn you might not know.
It dosen't require rotation of fields as often as other crops.
It requires less nuetrent rich soil.
Much like hemp (which also could be used to make a cleaner burning fuel sorce than petrlium) can grow in most any earth.
And one last thing, the US government pays subsadies here not to grow corn.

Apparently not.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_989.cfm
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005...n-fossil-fuel/

Based on what I've read, ethanol can at best serve as a supplement to fossil fuel.

Furthermore, apparently corn isn't that great either, based on this interview (http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/21185/). Rather than quote the entire article, the relevant portion is the answer to the following question:

"You've taken a critical look at what you've called "the cornification of America." What do you mean?"

[Metsuke]

New ethanol plants (in Brazil at least) are built to recycle waste heat, which reduces their energy use by 50%. Every single technology that exists can be modified in similar ways - how do you think that Japanese car companies learned to make such fuel-efficient and reliable engines? It's called research and development investment - something the US government refuses to support. Regardless of Bush's lip service for political reasons, this Administration will never support alternatives to fossil fuels (note that Bush slashed the funding for renewable energy research right after he spewed forth about 'switchgrass'). Cheney's money is all in Big Oil investments - if US oil imports were to end, the entire structure of the global economy would change.
All too often, we see a one-sided debate when it comes to biofuels - and the fact is, biofuels are for transportation, and fueling cars and trucks in the US is very, very profitable. In Venezuela, gas costs 20 cents a gallon - here, we pay over $3 a gallon. Ever wonder why that discrepancy exists? It's called market manipulation, a very old trick of the oil companies.
The main points I see in your links are these in a nut shell

Link 1 argues that Arable land that would otherwise have been used to grow food would instead be used to grow fuel, and then fall back to the carbon-intensive argument which I will address in the next point. in states like CA, AZ, NV, NM, and TX we have deserts, we know how to build reverse osmosis plants, and can convert ocean water to fresh water, why not use this technology to irrigate these deserts and grow maze? Simple big oil will spend as much as it takes to keep this from happening, and then the environmentalist will chime in with cries of the destruction of the bald a$$ed badgers habitat, my response so what! If we continue to damage the atmosphere with all this co2 and other greenhouse gasses, we will all get to die with the bald a$$ed badgers , how do we stop the steadily rising temperatures, by ceasing to destroy the rain forests, and planting more plants, these are our planets lungs, no oxygen, no life, period.

Link 2, this one points out that organic fuels are the most carbon-intensive fuel on earth. Well carbon isn't particularly destructive, carbon dioxide now on the other hand traps the heat from the sun inside the atmosphere hence the term greenhouse effect, but what you seem to be missing the 800 pound gorilla in the room. What is the only natural thing on earth that takes in carbon dioxide and releases oxygen? You got it, plants. Carbon dioxide levels in out atmosphere are higher now than at any time life has existed on this earth. Why? A number of reasons, fossil fuels release carbon dioxide when they are burned, population levels are higher (thanks in no small part to modern medicine) everything that breathes air exhales co2, vast expanses of forests/rain forests are destroyed on a horrifying scale, so we are loosing the planets lungs which work in the opposite of the way ours do.

The third link is a forum, and if you had read more of the posts you might have found that, there are as many views on the subject as there are Chins on a circus fat lady. The facts of the matter are these, the glaciers are melting at an alarming rate because of global warming. One of the biggest reasons for global warming is that there aren't enough plants to compensate for the spike in co2 and other greenhouse gasses we have caused. At the rate the icecaps are melting we will see most coastal cities, and island nations will flood and the face of the earth is going to change forever. We depend on a certain amount of greenhouse gasses to keep this planet from freezing, but at the rate they are being created we are turning this planet into an oven, and it is slow roasting. Not to mention what damage the melting icecaps are going to do to our oceans as the saline content drops. These are not my theories, they are facts.

I do not support deforestation to produce maze/sugarcane or any other crops that can be converted to fuel sources, but there are lots of deserts all over the world, and the technology exists to irrigate them and grow these crops, that as a side benefit will at least help reduce the greenhouse gasses while they are living. The discovery channel had a very informative show on global warming, and all the scientists agreed that if something drastic isn't done soon we will see the effects of our inaction within our lifetimes.
I think the main thing that we have to remember is we didn't inherit this world from our parents, we are holding it in trust for our children.

As an afterthought some legitimate arguments were made as to the efficiency of "green fuels" and atomic power, however 80% of Germany's power comes from harnessing the wind, it seems to me this makes a pretty solid case.

Ahmed, you make some very valid points, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Terms will have to be made in the middle east, one way or another.

[ahmed61086]

Ahmed, you make some very valid points, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Terms will have to be made in the middle east, one way or another.

Of course termes must be made. But diplomatic terms most likely wont work long term, because the Jews will never agree to the what the palistinians want, and vice versa.

[F0cUzzzz]

I am a Palistinian Muslim, lets just put that in the open so you can understand my posistion in this matter.

One thing is, you can't call the Palistinians and the Israelis as neighbors, this is a little rediculous. Let us go through the history a little bit. They Jews came to palistine as refugees with nowhere to go, so the Palistianian people took them in like brothers, and treated them as equals, not second class citizens. Then when these refugees got on their feet, they raped, murdered, and looted the palistian people. They took their country, their lives, and their pride.

Let us make a parable. The palistians were the houseowners, and the Jews were homeless. So the the Palistians took the homeless jews into their house, fed them, clothed them, gave them a Job, and then the Jews Murdered the Father in his sleep, raped the mother and daughters, then threw the sons out(and now the sons want justice). And then they took the house for themselves(while all the people in the neiborhood ignored it). So how could the Jews be considered the victims, or be called neighbors? They are illegally occupying a land which belongs to the Palistinians, and while doing so, make the palistians Second class citizens, and oppress and terrorize them everyday.

Sure, the israelis are suffering, but so do criminals when they go to prison. I know I am going to get flamed, but hey, the truth hurts.

The only way there will be peace in palistine, is if the palistinian people get their country back. Im sorry to say it, but the people wont be satisfied with any less.

Well, I certainly see where you are coming from. The occupied territories are just that, occupied. People don't seem to understand that before the Jews occupied them they were occupied by Palistinians. Long, long, long ago this area was home to both. I'm sure Jews occupied the area before the country of Israel was founded after WWII, they just didn't have their own country. They were GIVEN a county that was carved out of Palistine and now (well for a while now) that that's not enough they just want to take more and they do. If just about any other country in the word (well at least one the us does business with) did the same thing Israel is doing, we would want UN sanctions and trade embargos...etc and possibly the US would go to war to stop it. When Israel does it the US government looks the other way.

I just wish the "terrorists" would understand that many US citizens don't agree with everything Israel does or our government for that matter. We may be "free" but that doesn't give us as much power as one would think. We elect our officials but they make the laws and decide when we go to war. To know why we don't stop them you have to know more about our political system and how it actually works. One poitician wants some good things and some bad and so does the next. We don't get to vote on every issue, just on who gets to decide.

I don't have time now, but this is the discussion everybody in the world should be CALMLY disucssing.

Thank you ahmed61086 for an inteligent and thought provoking post.