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Thread: Inequality of Women in Kendo.

  1. #1
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    Unhappy Inequality of Women in Kendo.

    I have to ask: how do you do it?

    In so much of the modern western world, it has been forced that women are treated equally to men...At least, that is what is SUPPOSED to happen, and though we know it doesn't always happen and there is sometimes still the glass ceiling thing to deal with, for the most part it is there. Apparently, however, in Japanese martial arts even if they take place here in the west (I am in Canada) they are still treated as being beneath the men.

    I have had a hard time of things as it is; I have been practicing Kendo for about 15 months now. Men who come into the club are into bogu after about 2 months of classes...Sometimes less. They are not being graded by in-club requirements or anything, but I am. I am the ONLY female in my club.

    Sounds like it could be that 'hey, Khel is just not ready for bogu', right? I could be seeing sexism where there is none...Except this past Sunday it was flat out said; in Japan, women have no position in Kendo. When we line up now, it goes Bogu men (meaning males), Men with Hakama/Gi but no men, and then everyone else according to age...And then, at the very end, right after the little nine year old boy who has taken three classes---the women. In this case, me. As of Sunday it is official and -stated-, not implied or concluded by me but actually stated, that any male in the class regardless of their position, rage, rank, how long they have been in Kendo or the club, hereby has seniority over me. They are even having people who have taken a grand total of 4 classes 'teach' the new people who have been coming in lately, whereas before I was the one introducing them to basic footwork and how to hold chudan. Now I do not have the seniority needed to do that, answer questions, etc.

    This has been a major blow to my already aching self-confidence when it comes to Kendo. My classes are and have been what they were the first day---for 15 months I have heard 'and this is how you hold your feet' and so on and so forth. They talk down to me and then wonder why my confidence goes down. They take people who JUST join the club and elevate them above me. Hell, when positions opened in the club leadership? I volunteered, but rather than even CONSIDER me (I actually have experience running the things they needed run), they instead chose to approach a guy who had, at that point, been to maybe 10 classes. And they put him in bogu and elevated him above the rest of us.

    Ladies, how do you DO it? How can you succeed when we are treated this way? How have women managed to succeed in the art at all when we're viewed as inferior to them? Why is the Canadian Kendo Federation -supporting- this kind of thing? What am I supposed to do. I have had a hard time believing I can succeed, and lately I feel as if the art itself is intentionally trying to keep me away. I can't approach the teachers about my concerns; first of all, we are not allowed to ask questions without having negative consequences if they are not in SUPPORT of everything going on and second, it is my teachers who are RULING that women have no seniority in Kendo.

    Worst of all is that we have a seminar coming up...Two senseis, Johnsons Sensei and Hogi Sensei - I think from Toronto, are coming and now I feel like instead of it being something to look forward to that it's just going to be an event at which I am debased and humiliated. I don't know what to do. I don't want to LEAVE Kendo, and I know this sounds stupid but the 'feeling' I get the more I think about this, the more I think that this is just plain WRONG and not the way it's supposed to be. I'm not supposed to feel like this nor be treated like it. Yes, in ancient Japan maybe women weren't Samurai at all..But that was then, this is now, and this is Canada and not Japan.

    Please help, I need advice and most of all, women to talk to.

  2. #2
    4b 65 6e 64 6f 6b 61 shred_lord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelkhet
    Ladies, how do you DO it?
    They don't. Because I never heard of treatment like this. This is not a Kendo thing. Women in japan do alright in kendo. (UK too)
    Last edited by shred_lord; 4th October 2006 at 08:12 PM.
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  3. #3
    Yudansha
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    Hello Khel

    I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. Thats awful and really unfair.
    Who was it that told you Women have no position in Japan? I think thats ridiculous, when I was in Japan there were loads of really strong Japanese girls doing Kendo at University clubs and they recieved equal respect and grades to their male counterparts. When it came to lining up, being motodachi, and giving advice everything was on par.

    Womens kendo is very different to male Kendo, and I found espeically at the Uni and High School taikai I attended that girls were much more graceful and fluid than the boys. Infact I enjoyed watching the girls shiai more than the boys! There was a real beauty and grace in it, and it was really interesting to see.

    In our club we have some senior ladies and they kick my ass every week! And I always enjoy ji geiko with them and always ask for advice after practice. Also in the delegations that have visited England there have been a large number of girls and young women in University and high school club delegations. There will be also at the delegation that visits belgium in the Nakakura Cup in December. If women had no place in Kendo then Iam sure they wouldn't be included in such important international visits.

    If people are talking down to you it's not due to Kendo, but the arrogance and bad manners of those certain individuals. For sure I think that you will have no problem at all with the two senior sensei who will visit your club. You should definately look forward to their visit because Iam sure they will show you good kendo and a good attitude towards women taking part. Kendo is NOT a male dominated sport, and it annoys me immensley when small minded people claim it is and try to put down ladies who want to take part.

    Prehaps the issue is whether you should go to another club rather than if you should leave Kendo.

    please remember that in time when you get stroger and get into bougu you'll be much better than those others who at the moment look down on you. You're kendo will have something very different to theirs.

    Please don't loose heart, and keep faith in yourself. Kendo is a wonderful art and you can learn a lot about yourself through it. Keep your courage and determination and prove those who criticse you how wrong they are. Canada is a very strong Kendo country with some excellent teachers so Iam sure you can find a much better Kendo environment.
    Jon Fitzgerald
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  4. #4
    Don't call me Debbie! rottunpunk's Avatar
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    it sounds like sexism or a personal dislike to me.
    take your teacher to one side and ask him (diplomatically) what his problem with you is

    my advice is to stick with it and prove them wrong at this seminar.
    ask the visiting senseis lots of posh questions, and hog their attention whilst training.
    after the seminar, if it still doesnt work out, are there any othe clubs you can go to?

    also, how is your footwork? if its correct then its definatley a personal thing, probably

    stick with it and stay strong
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  5. #5
    Kendo Engineer Anime12478's Avatar
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    I'm not a woman, but it can't stop me from saying that your situation sucks. As far as the women having no position in Japan when it comes to Kendo, I wouldn't have thought that to be true as they have their own division when it comes to tournaments.

    Whether or not something like that is true still doesn't give them any excuse to treat them that way. This is the western world which, in your case, is in Canada where the female position has certainly risen over the past 50+ years. You should be treated fairly in life.

    One thing you can do is speak your grievances to your superiors about it. I wouldn't go up and immediately accuse them of doing anything wrong and being confrontational. But at least going up there and telling them how you feel might open up some dialogue. What they are doing is wrong, but they can't read your mind so they might believe that it's not a problem.

    Nobody would like you to leave kendo. If you have other options to do Kendo at another dojo, then you can do that if the waters get too hot. The better thing to do if it's not making your life miserable is to do your best to improve and show them that you can hang with the best.

    Of course, this is based on only hearing one side of the argument. I have no clue what the guys in the club are thinking so I can't really jump to conclusions.
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  6. #6
    Organic Nasu mingshi's Avatar
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    In most cases the order in line is based purely on experience/ year of practice and NEVER gender. This goes the same in Japan, say, at Uni, where senior girls line up ahead of junior boys.

    Just seem to be a strange case that your dojo is giving you inaccurate info on "Japanese culture". At seminars with other people from other clubs you'll see how things go (there must be other female).

    As we've no idea where you practice, you may consider writing a letter to CKF.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelkhet
    I have to ask: how do you do it?
    Lighten up, leave your emotional baggage at home and concentrate on training effectively.

  8. #8
    just a moving target ghostdancer's Avatar
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    is there another club in the area, or even within reasonable driving distance cos this club sucks big time. as you say they are guilty of overt sexism and at the very least do not deserve you as a member

    one of the instructors in the club i practice at here in the uk is a women a rather small women at that, I am 5. 9 and 14 stone, can i beat her, nope, come close to beating her nope, why because she is better than me, her kendo is and probably always will be better than mine am i bothered nope, i hope to be able to equal her eventually (looooong way to go )
    Not all men in kendo have the rather appalling attitudes you have encountered pls do not give up because of extremly narrow mineded attiutedes you have encountered in this one particular club
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  9. #9
    I feel very sorry for your situation and the fact it is up to a level it is influencing your kendo.

    I'd say talk to Neil 'The Saskatoonian Kendo God' Gendzwill, the main Canadian Kendo authority around here.........I'm sure he will be able to at least point you out in the correct direction.

    In the meantime, keep your head up and never loose your selfconfidence completely.....It is a hard thing to find when its gone........I know......

    Cheers
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  10. #10
    zzzzzzzzzzzz MikeW's Avatar
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    Khelkhet, I would have to say that it seems to me the problem is more YOUR dojo , or the people involved really, than kendo. The women in the kendo clubs down here in the area I am in are all treated the same as men both in terms of when the time is right to start wearing bogu, the practices they do, when they can test for rank, where they line up in practice, respect they are given, etc etc.

  11. #11
    Yudansha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kendoka
    Lighten up, leave your emotional baggage at home and concentrate on training effectively.
    Come on man thats a bit harsh.

    I think her concerns are genuine. How would you like it if people in your club put you down every week.

    Theres no place for bullying or intimidation in any club. Whilst I totally agree with pushing students to be there best (even if this means critising them when they don't train properly) and training hard, I don't agree with victimising or picking on people.

    If that makes me "soft" or some such then so be it. But I don't believe as a sport Kendo has the luxury (in terms of popularity) to afford to be able to turn people away with such attitudes. We need to bring as many people as we can into the sport and keep them in it.
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  12. #12
    you gonna whistle dixie? Ignatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kodachi
    Come on man thats a bit harsh.
    That is an understatement!!

    Our dojo is about 50% women and they are all strong kendo players (and also gorgeous). In the dojo all are treated equally and there is no place for the behaviour that you describe.

    Find another dojo if possible. Let us know where this dojo is so most of us can avoid it.
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  13. #13
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    Women in Kendo

    I am sorry to hear of the way that you are being treated. In my dojo, I am being taught by one of the highest ranking instructors, who happens to be a woman. I have not seen any sexism whatsoever in my dojo. It must either be that those who are doing this have something against women or have insecurity issues.

    I am part Japanese and my grandmother (who is Japanese) told me that Kendo was once a male only sport and that women were typically taught naginata. But, that was long before World War II. She informed me that women have been taught Kendo with some regularity since. She also told me that just before WW II many women and men were taught Kendo as a nationalistic way for students to receive their physical education instead of the "Westernized sports". It also prepared the young of Japan to know "martial" ways.

    I hope you can find a dojo that does not treat you in such a manner.
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  14. #14
    Yudansha johnkichu's Avatar
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    Sounds like a bad situation.

    Life is too short to put up with bs like this - get out of there and find another dojo.
    John

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    I don't mean to give the impression that I am some great Kendoka who is being repressed and prevented from reaching her full potential solely by these events. I am -not- great, I also am not -terrible- at it. I have gone to class admittedly once per week--the Kendo dojo is about an hour's drive from where I live, so I go to the 2 hour sunday class, with visits to the one hour tuesday and thursday classes when I am able to afford it. I do what I can; I can't afford $300 all at once for the 6mm stitch bogu that is sometimes on sale on ebogu.com, and I haven't a creditcard to pull a buy-now-make-monthly-payments manouver. The club had 2 sets of bogu that were due to be issued to me and another Kendoka who came to us in the summer...Instead, the bogu went to the guy whom I mentioned in my earlier post, the one who'd not been to many classes and has already been elevated above me in that regard. I am -not- fast, I have seen videos with old old men just zooming along. I can't do that either. I am not a great at Kendo. You shouldn't need to be to learn to do keiko and the like. For that matter, the guy who got the Bogu (we'll call him 'J') has even encouraged me to hurry up and get a set, so he can I can spar. Are you kidding, I would love to spar with him. At this point I am desperate for the progress and learning. I -want- to progress, I want to be able to practice. I feel like I am going nowhere and that I am watching everyone zoom past me, and the recent 'women have no seniority' and being overlooked for...pretty much everything have just been the latest in a mountain. There is no one I can go to 'above' these guys cause they're the ones that run the club. I am, however, very relieved (Really, you have NO idea!) to know that this is not standard for Kendo! When I first decided I was going to stick with it, last year when I first started, I did so with the determination that I was going to someday be a 90 year old woman kicking butt in Bogu and winning tournaments. I still want that. I have no doubt that there are places I can improve my skills, we can -always- improve. I do not feel that it is only my own shortcoming, I guess, and I feel like the club, especially now that school is in and we have some new students, is really, really putting me down. I am the only female in the class, I really wish some of you great people were here too at this point. You have really made me feel less...fatalistic...about the matter. Guys and gals alike. Maybe there will be something that can be done to improve everything--the club, my skills, etc.

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