Iaido vs. Iaijutsu

[Bennosuke]

What's the difference between Iaido and Iaijutus. I understand the difference between do and jutsu, but I can't see there being as big a diachotemy between the two, as there is with Kendo and kenjutsu, which are very different in many ways. Are the techniques in Iaijutsu more dangerous? More combat oriented? In what way are they different?

[rottunpunk]

erm.
iwata sensei doesnt distinct the two. its just iai
though at the same time he says we do iaido with a jutsu feel
clear as mud?

[Halcyon]

What's the difference between Iaido and Iaijutus. I understand the difference between do and jutsu, but I can't see there being as big a diachotemy between the two, as there is with Kendo and kenjutsu, which are very different in many ways. Are the techniques in Iaijutsu more dangerous? More combat oriented? In what way are they different?

There are many ways to answer your question, so it might be helpful to know why exactly you want to know. For example, is it purely theoretical curiosity? Are you looking for a particular dojo? Are you training in one, but interested in another?

[Charles Mahan]

I understand the difference between do and jutsu

If this was true, your post would have been unnecessary.

The terms are more or less interchangable. Some organizations prefer one term, other organizations prefer the other. Some organizations use them interchangeably, still others mix them with other terms. The branch of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu I belong with, uses Iaido most often and is a member of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei, yet my Rank certificate, signed by Ikeda-soke, refers to the art as Iai-heiho.

It's just a word. It doesn't tell you much about a particular art, it's effectiveness, or the way it is taught.

[Bennosuke]

Sorry for not being clear. I'm not looking for a dojo, I was just curious if there were technical differences like there are between kendo and kenjutsu. With the neccesity for safety in kendo and the emphasis on shinai use, the techniques are different than in kenjutsu. I was wondering asside from theoretics, if there was any difference in physical practice, between iaido and iaijutsu, or if intent for and in practice was the only different.

[Halcyon]

Sorry for not being clear. I'm not looking for a dojo, I was just curious if there were technical differences like there are between kendo and kenjutsu. With the neccesity for safety in kendo and the emphasis on shinai use, the techniques are different than in kenjutsu. I was wondering asside from theoretics, if there was any difference in physical practice, between iaido and iaijutsu, or if intent for and in practice was the only different.

In theory, iaijutsu focuses more on practical applications whereas iaido has a more philosophical underpinning. But it practice, it depends mostly on what the school/dojo/ryuha cares to call itself, or has called itself traditionally. How would you gauge whether one is more "practical" than the other anyway, short of engaging in mortal combat?

[pgsmith]

Sorry for not being clear. I'm not looking for a dojo, I was just curious if there were technical differences like there are between kendo and kenjutsu.

I see the basic cause of your confusion I think. Japanese is an extremly context driven language. Strictly speaking, there is no real difference between the words "kendo" and "kenjutsu" since they mean basically the same thing. However, since the kendo which is performed with shinai and bogu has become so wide spread, it is commonly understood that "kendo" refers to this particular activity. The vast majority of people, even in Japan, would have no idea what you were talking about if you said "kenjutsu", even though the kanji for the two mean about the same thing. It is very much like saying "fencing", and having everyone assume that you mean Olympic style fencing even though there are a number of different kinds of fencing.

[Bennosuke]

Nihongo ga muzukashii!!!

[ManyRoses]

In response to your origional question, The difference is huge. I may not be an expert on many things involving the art, I am an expert with names.

Iaijutsu is a killing art. That is simple. It was created as soon as japanese ken began being forged with curvature, as a way to quickly take down your opponent on the battlefield. It evolved from bottojutsu, which taught not only Iai, but how to fight many enemies at once. It was the first to teach 'no mind' principles. It was the origional focus of Katori shinto Ryu. Battojutsu (Iaijutsu) was an evolution of the origional tachi-do of the cavalry warriors before 1100 to the kodachi bujutsu of 1300-1600, which is debatable. Iaijutsu is a straight line from this aincent art. With the kodachi came the first drawing motion, from which we get the term Iai- from a 'sitting [kneeling]' position, roughly with respect to the old dialect.

Iaido, however is a newer art. Although Iaijutsu is no longer considered a 'killing art', it's koryu were created and evolved as such. Iaido is a truly meditative art, which came about after the advent of the meiji era in japan, to once again legalize the use of the shinken in martial study. In this respect, it was created to 'restore the noble status of the warrior' in post-feudal japan.

all of the above are according to the books I've read and the people who I personally have spoken to about the subject. It is all somewhat debatable, so I tried to stick as much to the basic historical information as I could. I am glad that you posted this and hope that I answered you question somewhat satisfactoraly.

[Halcyon]

In response to your origional question, The difference is huge. I may not be an expert on many things involving the art, I am an expert with names.

Iaijutsu is a killing art. That is simple. It was created as soon as japanese ken began being forged with curvature, as a way to quickly take down your opponent on the battlefield. It evolved from bottojutsu, which taught not only Iai, but how to fight many enemies at once. It was the first to teach 'no mind' principles. It was the origional focus of Katori shinto Ryu. Battojutsu (Iaijutsu) was an evolution of the origional tachi-do of the cavalry warriors before 1100 to the kodachi bujutsu of 1300-1600, which is debatable. Iaijutsu is a straight line from this aincent art. With the kodachi came the first drawing motion, from which we get the term Iai- from a 'sitting [kneeling]' position, roughly with respect to the old dialect.

Iaido, however is a newer art. Although Iaijutsu is no longer considered a 'killing art', it's koryu were created and evolved as such. Iaido is a truly meditative art, which came about after the advent of the meiji era in japan, to once again legalize the use of the shinken in martial study. In this respect, it was created to 'restore the noble status of the warrior' in post-feudal japan.

Linguistically speaking, you are correct. But in practice, if one thinks of iaido as "truly a meditative art" and not a "killing art," it's going to lack a crucial element. If iaido is not a killing art, then it becomes merely dancing. And that's why some schools/dojo/ryuha will use the terms iaido and iaijutsu interchangeably. The distinction between the two is rather arbitrary.

[Alison2805]

In response to your origional question, The difference is huge. I may not be an expert on many things involving the art, I am an expert with names.

Iaijutsu is a killing art. That is simple. It was created as soon as japanese ken began being forged with curvature, as a way to quickly take down your opponent on the battlefield. It evolved from bottojutsu, which taught not only Iai, but how to fight many enemies at once. It was the first to teach 'no mind' principles. It was the origional focus of Katori shinto Ryu. Battojutsu (Iaijutsu) was an evolution of the origional tachi-do of the cavalry warriors before 1100 to the kodachi bujutsu of 1300-1600, which is debatable. Iaijutsu is a straight line from this aincent art. With the kodachi came the first drawing motion, from which we get the term Iai- from a 'sitting [kneeling]' position, roughly with respect to the old dialect.

Iaido, however is a newer art. Although Iaijutsu is no longer considered a 'killing art', it's koryu were created and evolved as such. Iaido is a truly meditative art, which came about after the advent of the meiji era in japan, to once again legalize the use of the shinken in martial study. In this respect, it was created to 'restore the noble status of the warrior' in post-feudal japan.

all of the above are according to the books I've read and the people who I personally have spoken to about the subject. It is all somewhat debatable, so I tried to stick as much to the basic historical information as I could. I am glad that you posted this and hope that I answered you question somewhat satisfactoraly.

ahh yes, as someone who doesnt do iai at all, you are well qualified to correct these guys.

Carry on.

[fifthchamber]

Manyroses,
I would honestly suggest (And I'm not trying to offend) that you become a "full time student" and a "part time deshi"....The one may well be paying off but your history and understanding of it is rather lacking..
What is "tachi-do" or "kodachi bujutsu" you refer too? Are these terms used in any books anywhere, and if so what are your sources? Is "bottojutsu" (sic) a term that you have an understanding of? And why do you mention the Shinto Ryu having an "original focus" in this? Shinto Ryu was first and foremost a Kenjutsu Ryuha, Iaijutsu is just one of several additional segments, albeit one that has since become more central in the curriculum of the school.
Do you speak Japanese? If so, where did the reference to "Iai" meaning "sitting position" come from? Even in old "Dialect" (Not sure what that is precisely either..) "Iai" means "Being in place" and is quite distinct from "suwaru" meaning to "sit".
Lastly, why is that if "battojutsu" means the fighting against more than one enemy, does my school have kata that emphasize a single enemy in our Battojutsu? And why does modern Iaido (Zen Iaido Renmei) feature the kata "shiho giri" or "four directions cutting" if it is only against one imagined enemy?
Lot's of questions arise from your post..Any answers would be interesting to read.
Regards.

[ManyRoses]

ahh yes, as someone who doesnt do iai at all, you are well qualified to correct these guys.

Carry on.

Ummm. . . I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was correcting anyone. . .

Good job. No, you carry on, please. . .

[Bennosuke]

Nihongo ga muzukashii!!!


Double post sorry

[fifthchamber]

Iai is Iai..What you choose to add on to the end of it doesn't take away what you are training to do. If you mean to do it then it gets done. The training is just a way to make sure you can do it...
Iaido, or Iaijutsu, both mean the same to me..And would be assumed as the same in my school...However, what it means to another person or school I wouldn't begin to fathom, other than it's using a sheathed sword and drawing it to cut, then re-sheathing.
Basically..
And I see no reason to apologise for the double post...Japanese is hard and the posts above show why...But then, nothing is quite black and white is it?
Regards.