Is Zen a religion?

**Ignatz** · 6th April 2007, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Pugtm

no its a buddist sect. Buddhism believes in reincarnation and nirvana...

Here is a little Buddism 101 for you. You might want to have some idea about what you are talking about before you make such statements.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/reincarnation.htm

You will find that many of the "holy men" of the world dumb it down for dumb people and young people. At least the Buddhists admit it.

The biggest problem with being the Messiah is that most people are not interested in the Word, they just want the miracles.

**ZealUK** · 6th April 2007, 08:49 AM

I practice Soto-shu Zen Buddhism and regularly attend a temple. Zen Buddhism is a religion. The practice is underpinned by the four noble truths and the eightfold path. We chant the Makka Hannya Haramita Shingyo each time we finish zazen.

However Zen can be practiced by members of any religion. There are weekly talks about Christianity and Zen at the church in the city center, for example. There has to be some kind of moral structure underlining the practice of zen (zazen).

Perhaps the image of the reincarnation in Zen could be compared to dying continuously, every second of the day as we move into each subsequent present moment.

Why the question though? Does Zen really have anything to do with kendo?

**John Seavitt** · 6th April 2007, 08:59 AM

While it is the case that Buddhism, and Zen Buddhism, are not diest - there's no "god" per se - that's hardly been a requirement for 'religion' historically. Similarly, there's lots of variations on 'afterlife' and 'salvation', but simply not having the Judeo-Christian-Islamic version hardly seems grounds to disqualify some faith or other.

Regardless, I'd certainly view all the Buddhist branches as religion, just like all those Jesus-followers.

John "have a bowl of tea!"

**Kenzan** · 6th April 2007, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pugtm

no its a buddist sect. Buddhism believes in reincarnation and nirvana...

I think many people have a misconception of those two words.
reincarnation and nirvana are not places (such as an afterlife)
They are states of being/mind.

**Kenzan** · 6th April 2007, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bokushingu

my wife is both buddhist and shinto and she was telling me that reincarnation is a shinto punishment for making a grave mistake in your life. and that you will keep coming back until you have corrected that mistake. She believes that this is her third life and that Buddhism will help her fix the grave mistake when she encounters it again in this life. Me i'm Christian so i can't begin to understand, but I fully support her.

She does know that Shinto has no tenets, no doctrine, and no philosophy, right?

Of course, this doesn't stop my wife from making little straw effigies of people she hates and nailing them to trees in the local park...

**Charlie** · 6th April 2007, 09:35 AM

sorry, let me be clear - baby grabbing keyboard - came from bow thread; idea was advanced that zen was not a religion - my view is it is of course a religion but can also be practiced as a secular philosophy. it was suggested i start a new thread.

**Kenzan** · 6th April 2007, 09:45 AM

A Zen monk walks up to a Hot-Dog vendor and says:

"Make me one with everything"

The Zen monk walks away, and the vendor shouts after him:

"Here's your change!"

The Monk replies:

"Change comes from within."

**Pugtm** · 6th April 2007, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Bokushingu

my wife is both buddhist and shinto and she was telling me that reincarnation is a shinto punishment for making a grave mistake in your life. and that you will keep coming back until you have corrected that mistake. She believes that this is her third life and that Buddhism will help her fix the grave mistake when she encounters it again in this life. Me i'm Christian so i can't begin to understand, but I fully support her.

well im no expert but it was taught to me that Buddha wasn't Shinto. he was in fact Hindu and basically had a split off religion.

**Pugtm** · 6th April 2007, 10:30 AM

Here's how it appears to be.
Most religions(the decent ones) allows one to take something from everything. so you can use parts of zen without the whole and adapt it to something else or create a philosophy.
So in effect you can take some of the concepts from zen(states of mind for example) and apply them(to kenjutsu for example even if you are Christian or atheist or whatever. but the whole of zen together is a religion

**Masahiro** · 6th April 2007, 10:39 AM

one is able to achieve enlightenment, (dharma) through zen, thus zen can be considered to be a form of religion.

**Bokushingu** · 6th April 2007, 10:41 AM

hmm i get confused when she explains it to me. she did say they were two different things and not the same. but when used togehter they make the person better. she eve told me that many japanese in old japan were either buddhist or shinto and there was alot of conflict about it.

I do have a question. Is Zen also a part of shintoism?

**Pugtm** · 6th April 2007, 11:14 AM

isn't Shinto a religion that's not really a religion? i mean basically it says to worship anything you want and thats about it. Oh yeah the emperor is holy but besides that...

**Paikea** · 6th April 2007, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Pugtm

isn't Shinto a religion that's not really a religion? i mean basically it says to worship anything you want and thats about it. Oh yeah the emperor is holy but besides that...

Pugtm, at first, I was kind of pulling for you, what with the whole "why do people hate me because I do kendo" thing. That's fading real fast, as you continue to proffer ignorant nonsense like this. Expand your horizons, understand the world around you and learn something you above most people should be acutely aware of - tolerance.

**Masahiro** · 6th April 2007, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Pugtm

isn't Shinto a religion that's not really a religion? i mean basically it says to worship anything you want and thats about it.

well, it's a little bit more complicated, and maybe profound then that.

"shin" means "god" (kami in japanese) and "to" is the way. it is a bit arbitrary but, assuming there are "divine" beings in all things. yes, each individual can choose to "pay respect" to nearly anything. I had an aunt that had quite a strange item that she regarded as divine on her shinto shrine. .. ..and we (me, or any of my japanese cousins) never questioned her devotion.