Is Zen a religion?

[Ignatz]

. . .Zen is not a take-it-or-leave-it, my-way-or-the-highway kind of proposition like the Abrahamic religions. . . .b

Moses was up on the mountain for several days negotiating with the burning bush while the Isrealites nervously waited.

Finally he cme down and said "I've got good news and bad news. The good news is I got him down to ten. The bad news is adultry is still in.'

[Alison2805]

But as of my opinion, Zen is just a philosophy created by an inferior mind, in comparison to the Lord God and his word.

But as of my opinion, there is nothing quite as revolting as a fanatic.

[Kendoka_Han]

But as of my opinion, there is nothing quite as revolting as a fanatic.

Indeed it is your opinion.

If your relating the word of the Lord as "mere fiction, by fanatics", well then i hope you reconsider.

[ZealUK]

Otake sensei of TSKSR spoke about how he thought Zen would have taken up too much time for the average bushi. He is of the opinion that Shingon Mikkyo was more widely used and helpful. Whether Zen or another school of Buddhism, my belief is that bushi practiced these to help themselves understand/reconcile/prepare themselves for death, which was part-and-parcel of their trade.

One of my sempai is a buddhist monk, I asked him about this and he said pretty much the same thing. We have to remember than in Japan one doesn't necessarily have to be exclusively attached to a single religion, or even a sect of a particular religion. I imagine there was a great deal of mixing and matching going on where bushi would simply find the method that worked for them best. Perhaps try out a bit of zen, try some shingon practices and see.

[Alison2805]

Zen- definately a religion. It's a part of Buddhism, from the Dyana (meditation) school in India it because Ch'an in China- it's got patriarchs (bodhidharma, mahakashyapa, hui neng, etc), it's got doctrines, scriptures, sects inside of itself (Renzai/lingi, soto/caodon)- it has established roles for lay people and a monastic community- it's as much of a religion as any religion in Asia.

The fact that Zen has been introduced to the west as more of an idea and not a religion was because of _who_ and _how_ it was introduced- I forget the guy's name but one of the prominent people to bring it to the west made himself out to be some sort of expert in the arena and he wasn't even a monk not to mention anyone of great authority in the Buddhist community. This combined witht he fact that it was introduced to the west during a period when the west had a habit of exoticising Asia/ Asian culture (not that this has let up significantly even till today) gave us this impression that Zen is some vague philosophy- it's definately a religion, people believe in it, it has an established role as funeral providing religious tradition in Japan, it would be more natural to question the role of the traditional American priest at funerals or executions as part of a religion or not.

Now, where this comes into play with Kendo is the whole Renzai sect of Zen's having extremely close ties to the samurai class in Japan during the Tokugawa period and even earlier- however, as if to witness to the fact that it is a religion, if one reads Tsunetomo's Hagakure he says that you can't do both at the same time- better to be a faithful and loyal retainer to your master when you are young and when you are older enter the monastary with full commitment- just as Tsunetomo himself did.

long story short- its sooo a religion.

Ive learned someting today! Thanks Milova.

[webjunkie401]

Indeed it is your opinion.

If your relating the word of the Lord as "mere fiction, by fanatics", well then i hope you reconsider.

She wasn't calling the word of God fiction, she was calling you a fanatic because you were insulting with your 'inferior minds' post. Obviously it isn't an insult if you have faith in the christian God, but if you don't (or even if you do) you came off really insulting.

[Kendoka_Han]

She wasn't calling the word of God fiction, she was calling you a fanatic because you were insulting with your 'inferior minds' post. Obviously it isn't an insult if you have faith in the christian God, but if you don't (or even if you do) you came off really insulting.

I hate to say this but its fact, we are minds that have yet to really live life to the full. Your sounding a bit arrogant, because what i was saying wasnt insulting.

Zen is just a philosophy created by a sinful human being. Albeit if its good enough for you, then fine, but the word of the Lord God is alot more wise in living life than just listening to a fellow person.

Who knows, that person creating Zen could either be inspired by himself, Satan or the Lord God.

But what i do know is that he didnt have the word or spirit of the Lord through him, so i guess its the other 2.

[Alison2805]

Webjumkie was entirely correct. I find YOU to be an offensive little asshat, not your religion.

[webjunkie401]

I hate to say this but its fact, we are minds that have yet to really live life to the full. Your sounding a bit arrogant, because what i was saying wasnt insulting.

Zen is just a philosophy created by a sinful human being. Albeit if its good enough for you, then fine, but the word of the Lord God is alot more wise in living life than just listening to a fellow person.

Who knows, that person creating Zen could either be inspired by himself, Satan or the Lord God.

But what i do know is that he didnt have the word or spirit of the Lord through him, so i guess its the other 2.

You are missing my point. You don't think you were insulting for the reasons you just stated. But in a thread about zen being a religion or not, you went further and brought up christianity being a relationship. If this were a forum of just christians, or if this was the flames section I wouldn't care, but I find it offensive when people immediately jump to putting down other's beliefs philosophies. Zen may not be your cup of tea (it's not mine either) but that doesn't mean you need to say it was created by someone with an inferior mind.

As for saying I'm being arrogant, seems you're being quite holier than thou with your online religious attitudes. No one ever saved a soul by insulting their faith (no matter what Jack Chick says).

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I´m christian too, and I find your post to be deeply insulting, you can feel or think of human intelect as an "inferior" thing, but the fact of coming to this place where people has different beliefs calling other´s visions as inferiors is deeply insulting, even for you, assuming that you came to believe, what you defend now, due to your intelect not because LORD GOD divinely told you to believe.

As a side note, I´d recommend you Kendoka_Han to find a church and ask for theology, it may really help you to undestand and see life with more reason and less "wild passion" about things in general. It may be dissapointing for you to undestand that God is not a Super-Life-Being with a Super-Overhuman-Intellect, at least in christian religion.

As far as the Zen question, It is a sect of buddhism so it´s a religion, it may be a philosophy and a psicologic system as well, but that doesn´t mean it isn´t a religion.

[Kendoka_Han]

I am my own boss where religion is concerned. I am in no way insinuating an insult, you can claim my christian views as stupid or incorrect, but i would not be insulted if you did.

So whats the reason of you or anyone being insulted by my claim of Zen being a philosophy and it has been created over time by an inferior mind?

We are ALL inferior minds when in comparison to God. Even I will say I am an inferior mind.

[Kendoka_Han]

As a side note, I´d recommend you Kendoka_Han to find a church and ask for theology, it may really help you to undestand and see life with more reason and less "wild passion" about things in general. It may be dissapointing for you to undestand that God is not a Super-Life-Being with a Super-Overhuman-Intellect, at least in christian religion.

If your a christian, what is your understanding of God and Jesus Christ?

What type of christian are you anyways?

[webjunkie401]

I am my own boss where religion is concerned. I am in no way insinuating an insult, you can claim my christian views as stupid or incorrect, but i would not be insulted if you did.

So whats the reason of you or anyone being insulted by my claim of Zen being a philosophy and it has been created over time by an inferior mind?

We are ALL inferior minds when in comparison to God. Even I will say I am an inferior mind.

Okay, I just have to ask. If you are an inferior mind when compared to God, how are you your own boss where religion is concerned... wouldn't God be your boss?

I'm not insulted by you saying zen is a philosophy, it's when you decide to state it not as your own opinion or belief, but as fact. For a moment try to stand in someone else's shoes and reread your comments. Or switch the comments around, that christianity was just a bunch of drivel written up by an inferior mind.

So as to sort of try to make up for thread drift, I'm going to vote sorta. Partially because I can't make up my mind, but also because it seems (at least to me) that whether or not you consider it a religion depends on how you see zen impacting your life.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Christianism was not created by God either, it was created also by "inferior minds".

Apostolic-Roman (don´t know how to say it in english)

If you want to discuss personal beliefs let´s do it through PM. however, have you ever heard of the trinity or something like it?

..answer me through PM please. Sorry for misleading the thread.

[Kendoka_Han]

Okay, I just have to ask. If you are an inferior mind when compared to God, how are you your own boss where religion is concerned... wouldn't God be your boss?

I am my own boss in serving a God i believe in. My belief in a God is not going to be changed by others views, as i know God and Christ are true, due to prophecy and everyday life.

I'm not insulted by you saying zen is a philosophy, it's when you decide to state it not as your own opinion or belief, but as fact.

I did not state Zen to be a philosophical fact, i meant that its fact that we are sinful inferior minds in comparison to the Lord. Zen in my opinion is a philosophy, not a factual philosophy as you dont want to claim.

For a moment try to stand in someone else's shoes and reread your comments. Or switch the comments around, that christianity was just a bunch of drivel written up by an inferior mind.

I would not be offended, as thats someones opinion. I might argue the point in why Christianity is true, and i will go to a point that will be enough for most people to understand, then i will stop.