38 standard vs. women's 39

[XiaoPhoenixGrl]

Sorry if this has been done before but is there a significant difference?

I know the FIK regulation for standard for women is 38, but I was given a women's 39 shinai as a gift, and since I'm still a newbie, I was wondering if there's a dramatic difference.

[Kent Enfield]

I know the FIK regulation for standard for women is 38

Um, not quite right, but it's a common misconception.

The maximum length is based on age and not gender. The minimum weight is based on both age and gender. Thus adult women can use standard 39s (designed for adult men), standard 38s (designed for high school boys), or standard 37s (designed for junior high boys). Shorter than that (intended for grade school kids) and normal shinai are too light, and usually too thin as well, for adults of either gender. But anyone of either gender can use as short a shinai as they (and their instructor) want, as long as it meets the weight and tip-diameter requirements for their age and gender.

I can't comment on how different a standard (i.e. boys') 38 and a women's 39 would feel, being a large man who prefers a heftier feeling shinai anyway. I have held and done a few suburi with a women's 39. To me, it felt like I wasn't really holding anything, whereas a men's 39 that I cut down to a 37 to dabble in nito still felt substantial.

If the women's 39 is down near the minimum weight, it'll be lighter than the boys' 38 and weigh the same as a boys' 37. Being longer, it might feel slightly heavier.

[Alison2805]

Grrrr.

The maximum length is based on age and not gender. The minimum weight is based on both age and gender. Thus adult women can use standard 39s (designed for adult men), standard 38s (designed for high school boys), or standard 37s (designed for junior high boys). Shorter than that (intended for grade school kids) and normal shinai are too light, and usually too thin as well, for adults of either gender. But anyone of either gender can use as short a shinai as they (and their instructor) want, as long as it meets the weight and tip-diameter requirements for their age and gender.

39s are not designed for adult men. They are designed for adults. You can get a womens 39 which is slightly lighter, but 39s are for everyone. 38s are not designed for high school boys - they are designed for high school kids (not just boys) and women. 37 are also for high school kids. Adults wouldnt use a 37 for anything other than nito, Ive got one and its rediculously small.

A 38 and a womens 39 feel about the same, The regular 39 feels a bit heavier. You wouldnt use a 37 at all.

Heres the regulations:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kendo/shinai/

even though the "suggested size" for women is 38, you can use 38, womens 39 or 39, as long as it meets the minimum weight. They all feel slightly different.

As a side note, we have had a lot of problems here when we order 38s only to find that they are below the regulation weight. Something to watch out for.

[Kent Enfield]

Grrrr.
39s are not designed for adult men. They are designed for adults.

No need to get upset.

Look at the website you yourself posted. See the different minimum weights based on gender. Now, what is the weight of a "standard" 39 shinai? Is 440 grams? Or is it 510 grams?

Yes, any one can use as heavy a shinai as they would like. If you want to swing around a 1000 gram shinai (and can find one), there's nothing in the rules stopping you. When I wrote "designed for men", I meant "designed meet the minimum weight standard for adult men". Maybe instead of that, I should have written, "designed to meet the minimum weight standard for adult men but still allowed to be used by women, as the minimum weights for women and girls are lower than those for men and boys of the same age group, thus any shinai that meets the minimum weight requirements for males will definitely exceed that for females in the same age group," but I thought that would be clear. Would you be less upset if I called the catagories "women's shinai" and "men's--and women can use them too--shinai"?

I guess it wasn't.

[Alison2805]

Would you be less upset if I called the catagories "women's shinai" and "men's--and women can use them too--shinai"?

You dont get it, do you? THEY ARENT MENS. They are for all adults. Its just that women get the extra option of lighter ones (38s) if they want.


And a standard 39 is between 440 and 510 grams, or heavier. Thats pretty logical really.

[Martino]

Hehehe, looks like you gave Mark here a fright Alison.

Anyway back on topic,
Weights and lengths really only come into play when taking part in competitions (and possibly grading).

A larger shinai tends to take more psychical effort to swing. If a shinai is to heavy for a person they need to spend more strength/ effort controlling it and less on technique. This may induce bad habits. EG you use more right hand/arm to lift/stop the shinai, smaller cuts etc.

More things come into play here, like weigh and balance of a shinai, so it is not a cut and dry case.
One of the senior members of our club instructed on of our female members to train with a 37 shinai to build up speed. Once she was cutting faster she moved back to her longer shinai.

As a newbie it will not make much difference, and your sensei will be able to give you your best feedback.
My take is use the 39 for basics suburi (warm-ups) where you can more easily pay attention to what your doing. Then switch to the 38 when you start the waza (including the basics like men etc). When you switch over the 38 will most probably feel like a feather and faster, this is the sensation you want to maintain.

[Alison2805]

ah, well Ive now had my third coffee of the morning so Im less of a monster.

One of the senior members of our club instructed on of our female members to train with a 37 shinai to build up speed. Once she was cutting faster she moved back to her longer shinai.

Now thats interesting! Ive always heard of people doing the opposite to get faster - using a heavier one then switching back.

[Kenshi]

You dont get it, do you? THEY ARENT MENS. They are for all adults.

heh heh, chill out. i guess you wouldnt be happy shopping in japan for shinai.... cos you often see "for use by women" labels on the shinai racks. ive picked up a shinai and the guy in the shop has taken out of my hand saying "you dont want that, thats for women" before handing me a "man-shinai." i suspect the reverse would happen if a woman picked up a "man-shinai."

as for weight/length(/balance) - its simply down to preference. i dont think ive ever seen a female kenshi use a 39, and plenty of guys over here use lighter shinai or even 38s. most older guys use 38s i would say, and i know of a couple that use 37s as well.

anyway, unless you are competing regularly the weight doesnt even matter. fyi almost all shiai over here there is no shinai check... its all down to the honour system.

as for switching lengths/weights of shinai as a training tool --- its a good idea.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You dont get it, do you? THEY ARENT MENS. They are for all adults. Its just that women get the extra option of lighter ones (38s) if they want.

You can gripe about it all you like, but most women don't use a standard 39.

And a standard 39 is between 440 and 510 grams, or heavier. Thats pretty logical really.

No. A standard 39 meets the men's weight requirements. If they're lighter than 510, it's only by a little bit. A women's 39 is at or near 440 g.

[Alison2805]

You can gripe about it all you like, but most women don't use a standard 39.

Poodlspit. All the female kenshi I know do. Thats not a massive amount, but I dont think its as unusual as you think. You dont see online suppliers labelling shinai as Mens and Womens. Just standard and womens.

[Alison2805]

Having a look through some old threads it shows there is heaps of confusion on this. Mostly because people keep saying "thats a mens shinai" and "thats a womens shinai" and so on. Plus there were several women who were happy with 39s, and men who were happy with 38s.

Why cant everyone just go on what the regulations say? There is a suggested size for each sex, but you can use whatever feels fine for you, as long as it fits the regulations. Adding anything else to that just causes confusion.

[Martino]

Now thats interesting! Ive always heard of people doing the opposite to get faster - using a heavier one then switching back.

Idea behind it is been lighter you can swing it quicker and build up speed.
She had been trying to build her speed for a while but the heaver shinai was spoiling her technique.

Anyway I think a good portion of the women here in Canberra use 39 shinais. It depend on the available of 38. (An female numbers in our beginners courses)

Hehehehe
Go Alison,
I could elaborate but I am just going to sit back and enjoy.

[Alison2805]

Anyway I think a good portion of the women here in Canberra use 39 shinais. It depend on the available of 38. (An female numbers in our beginners courses)

Hehehehe
Go Alison,
I could elaborate but I am just going to sit back and enjoy.

Haha! You spectator you!

As an interesting point youve brought up Neil: do the females at your club CHOSE 38s after trying out both, or do they just get 38s because thats what they are expected to use? (trying to take the thread from Ali-rant to useful discussion, bear with me.)

[Kenshi]

Poodlspit. All the female kenshi I know do. Thats not a massive amount, but I dont think its as unusual as you think.

I know more than you. In fact, I got beaten up by a v.famous kenshis 5dan wife yesterday... she was on the 38 choo-choo train. Had she been on the 39 train she would have sacrificied some of her speed and I maybe wouldnt have lost as badly as I did.

The only woman I can say for sure used a 39 was an, erm, hefty/strong/tall gal. That was outside Japan.

I dont care what you use, but its just generally true that ladies tend not to use the heavier chunky shinai. If regulations had allowed me to use a 38 in the EKCs and WKC I took part in I would have gladly used them for v.obvious purposes..... the least of which not being cost.

As for regulations (2nd time I will say this) -- who cares about them if you are not an active competitor?

[s.j.]

I think you’re over-reacting a bit on the “39 aren’t men’s that’s gender bias etc. etc.” stance. The vast majority of standard 39 users are guys so such a designation is pretty reasonable. I get that your core intention is to eliminate gender bias on this point, but really by making this a big PC debate you’re shooting yourself in the foot because the term isn’t as implicitly gender biased as it is user descriptive.

Most of the women in my area use 38… and a lot of them would honestly have difficulty dealing with a standard (men’s) 39 shinai. The only reason I use a 39 as a 5’4” female is because that’s what I was given to start with and just happen to have enough muscle mass to keep using one effectively. That and I’m too lazy to learn how to get used to a 38. I use a 39 carbon for drills and a women’s 39 for general keiko & shiai. (Aoi’s is very nice) The big downside to women's 39 it that they’re thinner & not as hard wearing due to the weight savings. Most of the girls at my club buy the standard 39 we sell to beginners, then change over to 38 permanently when they start shopping around and realize they can use something smaller/lighter. lol