Holding Shinken vs holding Shinia

[ahmed61086]

Remember I said I would be asking a lot of stupid questions from now on, lol, well here I go.

Just recently I have asking around to see what the differences were between holding and cutting with Shinken and with holding and "cutting" with shinia. Now, I have heard many times on this board some conflicting things, but I am going to talk about some things that I heard out in my area. Some people say that in Kenjutsu, that the way you hold the shinken is totally different than the way you hold the shinia. Yet, I have had other qualified people tell me that you hold them allmost Identically when cutting. Some say that the hands must have a squared grip while cutting with katana, while I have heard others say that this way of holding the sword is incorrect for doing cutting and that the way we kendoists grip our shinia or boken, is quite right, in the context of Kenjutsu.

I have heard of an Iaido sensei say that, the cut in Iaido is Identical to the way you should cut in kendo. Also, in the book of 5 rings, the way Miyamoto explains to hold the sword seems mostly similar to how we grip our shinia.

I would like those who have experience in both Kendo and Kenjutsu, to give me there understanding on this matter. If thats Ok.

Cheers.

[Decado]

Remember I said I would be asking a lot of stupid questions from now on, lol, well here I go.

Just recently I have asking around to see what the differences were between holding and cutting with Shinken and with holding and "cutting" with shinia. Now, I have heard many times on this board some conflicting things, but I am going to talk about some things that I heard out in my area. Some people say that in Kenjutsu, that the way you hold the shinken is totally different than the way you hold the shinia. Yet, I have had other qualified people tell me that you hold them allmost Identically when cutting. Some say that the hands must have a squared grip while cutting with katana, while I have heard others say that this way of holding the sword is incorrect for doing cutting and that the way we kendoists grip our shinia or boken, is quite right, in the context of Kenjutsu.

I have heard of an Iaido sensei say that, the cut in Iaido is Identical to the way you should cut in kendo. Also, in the book of 5 rings, the way Miyamoto explains to hold the sword seems mostly similar to how we grip our shinia.

I would like those who have experience in both Kendo and Kenjutsu, to give me there understanding on this matter. If thats Ok.

Cheers.

From the perspective of someone who has been doing both disciplines (kenjutsu and iaido) for a short while I'm not sure I'd want to use a shinken for kenjutsu. Get it slightly wrong and you could end up with slicing someone in two or slicing someone's limbs off (and they can be difficult to sew back). As for iaido, only people who have been practising for 5 to 10 years or more use a shinken and then, even then from I can gather, not everyone feels the urge to do so.

I'm only a relative beginner in both disciplines so I would be grateful if someone more experienced could comment on what Ahmed has said.

[neko kenshi]

One quick thing: Your left hand with a sword is held higher up, maybe half an inch to an inch from the kashira (Just above the knot holding the kissaki on) as opposed to kendo where I believe you hold the very bottom. As for cuts: IMVHO your generic kendo strike and actually cutting are as different as night and day (I'm sure this isn't as true for more advanced people). The tenouchi and total feel/motion is quite different, you'll have to start an iaido class to really get a feel for cutting with an actual sword (where of course you'll use an iaito, not a shinken, or you may lose some fingers). Hope that helped a bit.

[ahmed61086]

One quick thing: Your left hand with a sword is held higher up, maybe half an inch to an inch from the kashira (Just above the knot holding the kissaki on) as opposed to kendo where I believe you hold the very bottom. As for cuts: IMVHO your generic kendo strike and actually cutting are as different as night and day (I'm sure this isn't as true for more advanced people). The tenouchi and total feel/motion is quite different, you'll have to start an iaido class to really get a feel for cutting with an actual sword (where of course you'll use an iaito, not a shinken, or you may lose some fingers). Hope that helped a bit.

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.

[ren_kuroda]

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.

As someone who did kendo and now does iai and cuts regularly (iai cutting as well) I can assure you that the use of a shinai to score a point in kendo and the use of a shinken in the test cutting of a target are more different than similar...but don't take my word for it. Find a dojo and start training.

Regards,

r e n

[h2o]

I've heard fairly advanced iaido people say "look at <kendo-nanadan>'s cuts, it is exactly how we do it". So as someone says, it seems to rely somewhat on level.

Personally, my kendo- and iaido cuts are very different, but then again: I am not high level

[ScottUK]

but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka.

How odd - I have heard (and seen) the exact opposite. Kendoka do not cut like how an iaidoka would. Tameshigiri comes much easier to the iaidoka.

Echoing all the above: love your new sword - have intimate moments with it if you are that way inclined - but don't practice with it until someone shows you how.

[pgsmith]

Echoing all the above: love your new sword - have intimate moments with it if you are that way inclined - but don't practice with it until someone shows you how.

Thank you Scott! If this damned forum would let me, I'd give you reps for that statement!

[Charles Mahan]

I gave him one for you

[ahmed61086]

Echoing all the above: love your new sword - have intimate moments with it if you are that way inclined - but don't practice with it until someone shows you how.

Hehe, you dont want to know! (j/k, j/k)

Come by the dojo, and you'll see the difference.

Soon, hopefully.

[neko kenshi]

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.

Huh, that surprises me. Maybe it has to do with the level of the practitioners? Has anyone else seen this sort of a comparison (Aside from those who have already reported on it).

[Manuka]

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.

I would be intrested in more information about that test.

I have trouble with the credibility as Iai is all about the follow through of the cut whereas kendo the tenouchi is immediate upon contact. A Men does not follow through to the navel as in Iai.

This would have the kendoka automatically applying the brakes as soon as the ha met the target, or trying to ovrride all that training for the cut through.
My Iai Sensei had us perform cuts on lightly held newspaper sheets to demontrate correct cut versus tearing the paper.

[chidokan]

I think that test would be interesting to analyse... did they use 'skinny' mats, what levels/grades were present, did they all use the same sword... As an observation, I have seen a (female) godan iaidoka fail to cut mats, yet an ungraded aikidoka (6' guy) went straight through first cut on being shown/told what to do. This suggests he may have powered through in contrast to the lady, but was not the case. He just used the hip when I told him to. Note when the lady did it only three of us cut first time, about another 20 or so needed two or three attempts, and there was a mix of both kendo and iai people. So aybe the sword was a bit blunt...
I do not consider tameshigiri to be a good test of swordsmanship, although it can be a good test of skill. By that I mean the target doesnt move, you can take your time, measure distance etc. For the USA test I reckon the kendoka would use a kote strike, which would be ideal for cutting thin mats. Six mats plus and the results would change....

Kote ruin any chance I have of applying correct hand shape to a tsuka, but I guess unless I buy those flat sided shinai and the moulded type kote. Both iai and kendo like large circular cuts, but you cannot apply tenouchi for a long time in kendo, and in fact I think I have ended up applying it above my head and stop it before it hits the target. Otherwise the poor guy opposite would be going home with a headache and I would end up with broken shinai... So the only vertical cut I would say is identical is the kote strike. 'Do' I would count as a good iai cut also, but not 'men'.

[Bucho]

someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka.

I'd also be interested in hearing more about this, I'm mostly inclined to think it's a kumdo urban legend.

[ScottUK]

I'd also be interested in hearing more about this, I'm mostly inclined to think it's a kumdo urban legend.

I agree. My experience is the absolute opposite to this. While kendoka will learn to do decent tameshigiri just as fast as an iaidoka, the natural cutting action in iai is more suited to tameshigiri than kendo waza.