Why do you think its disrespectful?

**The great I AM** · 14th June 2007, 07:24 PM

So, having snooped my way around a few threads, posted a little bit of random nonsense from my stream of conciousness, I've noticed a few things like this:

by trying to maki age/otoshi their shinai away, you are basicaly telling the sensei his kamae and grip is weak.

I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.

Those are the two that jumped at me today.

Where does this sort of thinking come from, or start? Surely when practising with someone, in particular my sensei, I want to give them my strongest techniques, and learn from them beating these techniques? What do I get from pandering to them by not using my best kendo and essentially "allowing" them to kick my ass as opposed to trying to beat them and "getting" my ass kicked? Its a big difference.

This sort of thing has me totally confused. On the one hand we've got trying your hardest and improving your kendo, and on the other we've got "you can't do that because he's a teacher/its supposedly rude/pick your reason."

Puzzled.....anyone who thinks like this care to ellaborate on the whys and wherefores? At the moment it just seems quite a closed and limited way of thinking, and perhaps playing far too much to one side of the "respect your seniors" idea.

**dwez** · 14th June 2007, 08:49 PM

I don't know if this is similar but I was warned on Saturday that there were women on the opposing team and therefore not to tsuki, not that I would.

Now obviously tsuki carries it's own set of issues anyway but it's a legitimate target and if one was significantly more adept at it why would it be OK to receive a tsuki but not be able to do it in return?

I'd imagine a stray do cut would be potentially more inappropriate than tsuki against women. I'd imagine someone who is six grades above me would find it far more insulting that I shouldn't use tsuki because of her gender than if I did use it and she felt 'disrespect for a senior'.

**cesarekim** · 14th June 2007, 08:54 PM

My sensei once told me that anything goes in shiai but not in jigeiko. His idea of jigeiko is to improve your kendo not win. Having said that, he once mentioned how disrespectful a nanadan had been at a shimpan seminar by going jodan on him right at the beginning of jigeiko. He had no qualms pummelling him for it. For some reason, he does not seem to object when people here in Italy try jodan on him but I guess the nanadan was a Japanese person in his 50's who should have known better.

Going back to a thread I started last year, tsuki is one of those no-no waza. I regularly get scolded for not taking the opportunity when it's given to me by my sensei. Having said that, I will rarely try katate yoko-men on a senior (actually anyone) while I will definitely try katate-tsuki. Weird....

My personal understanding on this is that courtesy as pertaining to specific waza or kamae is a perception based more on the person doing the action rather than on the waza or kamae itself. I vaguely remember one occasion where a nanadan had to be told to go to jodan during a demonstration by one of the hachidan there. He had not taken this kamae despite the fact it was his normal kamae out of respect for the sensei he was practicing with...

**Fudo-Shin** · 14th June 2007, 09:08 PM

It just doesn't make sense to me. Why wouldn't you explore every possible way to play well against Sensei?

But I have found myself in a situation/s, where an Old-school Japanese Sensei would only let me cut Men and Kote when I thought I was capable of much more, it felt more like waza-geiko. I conformed then out of respect, I could sense a boundary and I consider myself a classic non-conformist. So I can understand why some Kendoka (particularly in Japan I think) feel limited with their Kendo vocabulary against Sensei. Just depends on the sensei.

But I thank "Kendo's Jehova" that my regular Japanese Sensei here let's me try my hand at anything during Keiko,.. maki-otoshi, tsuki and even a bit of Jukendo if we see a good chance (mucking around on a personal level of course). I think it's healthy to mix it up, but then again it's good to have your Kendo picked apart and re-constructed by those strict Kendo purist sensei...Doshio??

As for the Jodan thing, if he takes to Jodan, no offence taken,...but hello tsuki, but I don't know any Sensei who play Jodan anyway. And I wouldn't attempt tsuki on a Sensei I didn't know well. Hope I aided in opening the debate.

**JSchmidt** · 14th June 2007, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by dwez

I don't know if this is similar but I was warned on Saturday that there were women on the opposing team and therefore not to tsuki, not that I would.

It's actually part of the BKA shiai rules, that tsuki is not allowed in mixed gender matches, unless one of them is in jodan/nito.

Jakob

**Fudo-Shin** · 14th June 2007, 09:14 PM

Let me re-phrase something,... I wouldn't try Tsuki on any Sensei I didn't know extremely well, even if he took to Jodan. Not that I have been in that situation anyway.

**JoDuncan** · 14th June 2007, 09:15 PM

My Sensei has also commented on jodan.

He said that in Japan you should ask if you can fight in jodan. It's a very high level technique so it's a long way off for me.

As for the maki, i asked why it is direspectful also. Seems like a perfectly legitimate (and bad ass) technique to pull out every so often.

**cesarekim** · 14th June 2007, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Fudo-Shin

SNIP
But I thank "Kendo's Jehova" that my regular Japanese Sensei here let's me try my hand at anything during Keiko,.. maki-otoshi, tsuki and even a bit of Jukendo if we see a good chance (mucking around on a personal level of course). I think it's healthy to mix it up, but then again it's good to have your Kendo picked apart and re-constructed by those strict Kendo purist sensei...Doshio??
SNIP

Is jukendo when you get to use old rules including ashi barai and throw the kote at your aite?

PS: I will try katate and tsuki stuff with sensei but ONLY with the ones I actually know and have had at least a drink with... Sorry if I wasn't explicit above...

**Fudo-Shin** · 14th June 2007, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by cesarekim

Is jukendo when you get to use old rules including ashi barai and throw the kote at your aite?

Well...only the tripping each other over (gently) part. Mucking around.

**cesarekim** · 14th June 2007, 09:27 PM

I only get to do that when it's a private session with my peers. Adds a whole new dimension to tsubatseriai... lots of fun

I shudder to think how sensei or kohai would react to us doing this in general practice. I can almost see my sensei picking me up by the privates and hitting me over the head with the tsuka...

**A Wadlow** · 14th June 2007, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Fudo-Shin

Let me re-phrase something,... I wouldn't try Tsuki on any Sensei I didn't know extremely well, even if he took to Jodan. Not that I have been in that situation anyway.

tsuki his boots off. Nothing wrong with that.

I somtimes have a problem fighting two perticular sensei's as its quite hard to have the "i'm going to crush you" attitude against them because I feel like a twat. Its just a subconsious thing I'm trying to get rid of. And as Jehova said its all a bit of budo anyway.

**ScottUK** · 14th June 2007, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by cesarekim

Is jukendo when you get to use old rules including ashi barai and throw the kote at your aite?

No, Jukendo is the Way of the Bayonet.

Picture here.

**GavinP** · 14th June 2007, 09:44 PM

As a newcomer I can definitely understand the 'that's an advanced technique, why don't you stick with this for now' thinking. You have to get the basics right before the more advanced stuff. In a competition (shiai?) I think it would be disrespectful NOT to give them your very best whether that be jodan, trying for tsuki or whatever. Anything less is like telling your opponent that you don't need to try to beat them.

In training, well you do whatever it is that you are supposed to be learning... but isn't that the perfect place to be trying to better your Kendo? How are you going to learn to go against jodan if no-one ever does it in training because it is supposedly disrespectful?