Kendo tattoo

[AlexM]

So, is this from your own experience, or are you simply parroting what you've heard? It has been my experience that, while many of the older kenshi are quite conservative, they aren't idiots. They realize that tattoos are seen differently outside of Japan, and don't expect non-Japanese to be Japanese. This is especially true in kendo circles where there is even more contact with foreigners. Tattoos can get you trouble in some onsen, and occassionally from an ultra-national type that enjoys harrassing foreigners.

It is much more an issue for Japanese nationals, and I've never even heard of anyone being denied practice at any kendo dojo because of tattoos.

Listen, I couldn't care less if anyone believes me or not, but that's the way it works: No one will say it to your face but they'll look down on you.

Is it that troublesome to cover up the tattoo among police in Japan? You do it because its the polite thing to do and that's it. Some Western attitudes do not travel well whether we would like them to or not.

The advice I'm parroting was from my sensei by the way. But he probably doesn't know what he's talking about seeing as he learned his kendo at keishicho by getting the shit pounded out of him on a regular basis. I'm sure that you know more than he does despite the fact that you don't practice kendo.

[Alison2805]

hmmm. Well this is an interesting debate.

I personally got some shocked looks with my little tattoo at the beach in Japan - from teenager surfies. However it didnt stop me from being allowed in the onsen.

But if I had plans to train with a poice dojo or any dojo in Japan where I didnt know anyone closely, I would not have gotten the tattoo. Im not stupid. Although I wouldnt turn down the chance to train in Japan one day, my plan is to train in dojos all over the world as my work takes me - I doubt Ill ever be sent to Japan for work!! There are enough wonderful places to train in the world outside Japan. So for me, its OK.

To tell the truth, I expected more of a negative response to this thread, in particular to me. Im quite pleased with how open-minded everyone seems to be. Thanks guys!

Now you guys can get back to your debate. Play nice.

[hl1978]

So, is this from your own experience, or are you simply parroting what you've heard? It has been my experience that, while many of the older kenshi are quite conservative, they aren't idiots. They realize that tattoos are seen differently outside of Japan, and don't expect non-Japanese to be Japanese. This is especially true in kendo circles where there is even more contact with foreigners. Tattoos can get you trouble in some onsen, and occassionally from an ultra-national type that enjoys harrassing foreigners.

It is much more an issue for Japanese nationals, and I've never even heard of anyone being denied practice at any kendo dojo because of tattoos.

In my own experiences in japan, I have found that the better your japanese is, the more japanese you are expected to act like. You still have the gaijin card, it just might not work as often unless it is with someone you don't know.

[Kenzan]

Listen, I couldn't care less if anyone believes me or not, but that's the way it works: No one will say it to your face but they'll look down on you.

Whether you have tats or not, foreigner or native, man or woman, Japanese or Guatemalan, I'd be willing to bet that almost all modern cultures who consider themselves "civilized," consider the act of "looking down on people" to be one that does not rank high among the list of human virtues.

[JSchmidt]

It is much more an issue for Japanese nationals, and I've never even heard of anyone being denied practice at any kendo dojo because of tattoos.

It's not so much of being denied, but not getting any further introductions.

George (kenshi) and I talked about this subject on my recent trip to Japan and he's parroting exactly the same as me and Alex.
There's many ways of playing your gaijin cards, but you will have a limited amount and spending one on excusing a tattoo is a waste, IMO.
Your milage may vary, of course, so if you want to have a tattoo, by all means, feel free.

[misterkurukuru]

Japan is Japan,
it may take you a life time to figure out suburi
the same may be said about the Japanese culture.

at least you guys can play the gaijin card.
As a person who is an American citizen,
but whose parents and whole family is from Japan
I will never be excused for some of the stuff
other gaijins get away with.

ignorance is bliss...lets just leave it like that.
they wont hate you. but you will never be accepted 100%.
so just leave it as that, and be thankful that there are
a lot of us around the world who dont carry the same views.

[kendokamax]

Its an extreme exemple but...
I have heard of a Finnish guy who wore a hear piercing during a keiko at keishicho. The police guys noticed it and they would tsuki him aiming to the hear where the piercing was. Heard it was a bit bloody after.

In Tokyo you will be able to see all kind of kids with tatoo and piercing etc, but in the Kendo community they are a bit rarer. But I remember some guys at Budai used to have piercing, but they would always hide it when they smell senpai or sensei around. Too scared of getting beat up.

It's stupid but thats the way it is, over there.

[xvikingx]

If I may....
I have tattoos and I have never had any major problems nor have I been treated unfairly, by "old traditionalist" and youngsters alike, in or out of the dojo. Most people are open minded and they don't talk about it as a foreign thing. In fact what I usually hear is "Ah kids today, I don't get it. Tattoos are fashionable now." In my years I've only been asked to leave one sento. The dojo-cho, a former police chief, only made one comment, jokingly, about taking my tattoos off with as cheese-grater.
No Japanese would ever automatically associate tattoos with Yakuza. That's non-sense. Yakuza have yakuza tattoos, tattoos that tell a tales and have meaning. Someone may think you are a degenerate but most deffinately not yakuza. Especially a foreigners, get real. Criminals (arsonists, murderers, thieves) were branded with tattoos, usually somewhere visible like the face or forearms. This is where the social stigma stems from.
As for playing the "gaijin card", if you decide to play your life like that, riding on some kind of social fence, hopping in and out of the sociatal boundry, then you can only expect to run into barriers and have your fair share of dissappoitments. People here are not mindless robots, who are only obedient to their cultural values. They will judge you on your character and not simply on your appearance alone.
@Kurkuru- Tattoos or not I will never be 100% accepted. If your not Japanese, you're NOT Japanese, and you never will be. There are very few people that will get past the fact that you are "gaijin".

[Rob W.]

Thanks for the first person information, everyone who's trained in Japan. I'd be interested in hearing the experiences of gaijin living there now, especially long-termers with good command of the language. I have large "irezumi" style tattoos over a good portion of my body, and am only going to get more (although nothing past the t-shirt - shorts area). Everything is coverable except a little on the top of the back of my neck and my palm... I always forget about my palm. I've pretty much resigned myself to being unable to visit some places I'd like to when I travel to Japan, but I'm worried about the general attitude towards tattoos and how it would affect me applying for an English teaching position. From all of my sources tattoo "discrimination" is still a serious consideration in polite / adult Japanese society.

I suoppose I could teach english to yakuza.
"Ok, repeat. I... am... going... to... gut... you."
"Where... is... the... money."
"Your... american... laws... mean... nothing... to... me."
"I... am... an... oh... gee."

The dojo-cho, a former police chief, only made one comment, jokingly, about taking my tattoos off with as cheese-grater.

Eeeeeeeegh.

[ogogo]

from my experience tattoos are still quite taboo in japanese culture. In fact, im not sure if this applies to all, but at least some gyms wont let you in if you have a tattoo for fear of causing unease amongst the other gym members. Now this isnt a definite logical leap, but I would assume it would be the same at atleast some, not all, kendo dojos.

[xvikingx]

@Rob- Expect to be treated differently. Especially if you are going to be covered with tattoos. If you have them showing then you will probably be shunned. If it's only visiable when you change then most likely they won't care much.

@ogogo- Read my post above. Some places like fancy gyms or spas with be more strict about the rules because of the clients they are trying to attract.

*If you are flashing tattoos expect to attract unawanted attention. Like Alex said learn about the culture and know your place. However it's not as black and white as some have suggested here.*

[xvikingx]

@Alison- If you ever have kids that tattoo is going to be an absolute mess!

[Rob W.]

Thanks for the straight up advice xvikingx. My tattoos don't show when I have a t-shirt on, even though when I'm naked some would call me "covered". I suppose I'll try and make due... the attitude sounds very different there as compared to the west (obviously).

Allison, just as an aside, some of my friends had belly tattoos and although they looked rediculous while they were pregnant, they went back to normal afterwards. Although I have a feeling you're going to tell us you're not planning on getting pregnant in the near future.

[hl1978]

@Rob- Expect to be treated differently. Especially if you are going to be covered with tattoos. If you have them showing then you will probably be shunned. If it's only visiable when you change then most likely they won't care much.

@ogogo- Read my post above. Some places like fancy gyms or spas with be more strict about the rules because of the clients they are trying to attract.

*If you are flashing tattoos expect to attract unawanted attention. Like Alex said learn about the culture and know your place. However it's not as black and white as some have suggested here.*

I would say you pointed things out quite accurately. I have had friends who have tried to go to various gyms etc not be admitted due to tattoos.

I only pointed out the gaijin card thing in part because people who have never spent any time there probably aren't familiar with the term, and the meaning beyond the thing you gotta carry. I know long term residents of japan who still abuse the gaijin card thing from time to time with pride.

For those who haven't been there, Japan isn't the rosy place in your dreams. Despite having been spit on, had bottles thrown at me, people try and start altercations (surprisingly Mitaka could be a hazardous place), I still go back plenty of times.

[Kenshi]

I was waiting for viking to comment before I said anything.

Although you probably wont get into major trouble if you are a non-Japanese person with tatoos, its best to be without them. Full stop. Because you are a non-Japanese person they probably wont take you seriously anyway, and if you have tatoos, well, they will take you less seriously. If youve already got tatoos it cant really be helped, but you should be aware of the problems that could possibly arise.

Although viking hasnt really got into any problems, there is 1 incident that Id like to share. He came to my gasshuku this year and - after training - we all went to the onsen. I totally forgot about his tatoos and - because he is culturally sensitive (though not morally!) - he chose not to come when everyone went in before the evening meal. I spoke to my 2 head sensei about it and they said "its no problem with us, but it would be best if he came later on (late at night)" ... the sensei were not too bothered and didnt/wouldnt have stopped him, but they didnt want to cause a problem to the onsen owners or other bathers. Our shihan - Hanshi 8dan - didnt see him and its just as well... as I *KNOW* there would have been hell to pay.

viking is also v.careful about taking showers indescretely when he comes to my dojo.... hes not wandering around like a sailor on shore leave strutting his tatoos.

This is a normal dojo btw, not a police one. I would consult the head sensei in a police dojo before I took anyone there with tatoos.

Another tale: despite what you may think, I think tatoos are pretty cool. I was going to get one a few years ago (the usual kanji and what not) but when I consulted my sempai about this (this is koryu, not kendo) he stated: "Get one if you want, but your progression on this art stops then. Also, you will never recieve an introduction from me to anyone in Japan." It kind of shocked me, so I stopped.