Kendo: Martial art or martial sport?

[gordonpatti]

I realize that this has probably been discussed many times but I would like to know if there is a definite answer out there and what other kendokas think?

I think of kendo as a martial art, but most people think that because it uses a point system and is a more recent martial art (what, about 150 years?). Also, most people seem to think that unlike karate or jujitsu we don't have a definite ideology or practical.

What do you guys think?

[ShinKenshi]

I realize that this has probably been discussed many times...

Search through the threads and you'll find many discussions on this subject.

...most people seem to think that unlike karate or jujitsu we don't have a definite ideology or practical.

Those people then aren't aware of the concepts of kendo as published by the All Japan Kendo Federation.

Yes we use a point system in tournaments but what other martial art that has tournaments doesn't? It's true that kendo doesn't exactly have a "practical application" in terms of self defense but I don't think people practice kendo for that purpose. We practice it to develop ourselves into better people and learn to have an unshakable resolve. In a way, comparing kendo to jujitsu or karate is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. While all are martial arts, kendo was created with a different purpose in mind.

[yoda-waza]

The sport of competitive kendo involves a point system but that one aspect is not at the core of kendo as a martial art. 'Art' is a vague western translation of the 'do' in kendo wherein the ultimate heart of its value resides. To practice kendo is to struggle to become a better person, not to just learn sword combat or score points.

There is no point system to measure a persons worth.

[absenteekendoka]

It is a martial art...it is a sport....it is many things to many people. Vague yes, true yes.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's a dessert topping and a floor wax.

[rfoxmich]

Is kendo a martial art or a sport?
Yes.

[gordonpatti]

I realize that it is a difficult question to answer but what is the criterion for a martial art? And a martial sport? What distinguishes the two and how are the people that practice them different?

[Sparv]

I'll write her my shallow thoughts, and I hope that wiser than me will help me precise them.

In kendo, I work on wazas, my stamina, muscular force and so on: that's a sport.

It comes from a military background: it's martial

I try to defeat my opponent's mind (as a beginner, I'm more trying not to be defeated actually): it's definitely martial. BTW, tennis is also a martial sport from this point of view.

BUT the "perfect kendo mind" is a calm and clear one, and the first aim in keiko/shiai/shinsa is to improve our kendo. We are not trying to be the best, but to be better. That's an art!

Conclusion: like rfoxmich said, yes is a very good answer IMO.

Moral of the story: I love it and I don't care if it is an art, a sport or a potato.

[Steve Bishop]

I realize that it is a difficult question to answer but what is the criterion for a martial art? And a martial sport? What distinguishes the two and how are the people that practice them different?

Very tricky...kendo as a sport has boundaries, a point-scoring procedure, rules and referees to adjudicate on these rules whereas "kenjutsu" did (does) not and a "kendo" (as practiced post WW2) falls somewhere in between to emulate the methodological and ethical characteristics of the "justu" while training in tactics and methodology for the sport.

In a way there's no question to answer since all three can have very different approaches...I'm confused now too!

[Ignatz]

This is a question usually raised by people who have minimal understanding of kendo.

[ne0r]

Hm. From a mathematical point of view:

Kendo = Sport united with Art united with Martial
Kendo != (is not) Sport intersected with Art intersected with Martial

I think this is what Neil wanted to say.

Oh, and all this doesn't actually matter, I think. What will it help you to categorize whether Kendo is a martial art or a martial sport?

[ne0r]

Hm. I realized that's not really true, it's kind of both, intersection and union.

[pgsmith]

What do you guys think?

Since you asked, I think it doesn't make a rat's patootie what you call it. Martial art, martial sport, whackity-whack with funny stick thingy, it's the act that's important, not the words. If you enjoy the practice, do it. If not, do something else. If anyone is overly worried about semantics, they obviously aren't practicing anywhere near hard enough!

Heh, you had to ask didn't you!

[enkorat]

I realize that this has probably been discussed many times

Yes, it has been discussed many times, by many people over every generation of kendo, not just here. I've found that Noma Hiyashi's take on this argument in "the Kendo Reader" is a particularly elegant argument.

but I would like to know if there is a definite answer out there and what other kendokas think?

There is no definitive answer. Every person's answer to your question will be highly personal and the formation of that particular answer will help define what you expect out of kendo, and what your priorities are.

I think of kendo as a martial art, but most people think that because it uses a point system and is a more recent martial art (what, about 150 years?).

This is a very vague statement. What do you mean by "martial art"? Who do you mean when you reference "most people"? Other kendoists? Other martial artists? Lay people? Beginners? Kodansha?

Moreover what do you mean by "recent" martial art? At what age does a martial move from "new" to "old"? When did "kendo" begin? In the 1700s with the invention of the shinai? At the committee meeting in the early part of the 20th century? After World War II? Is Kendo "newer" than Judo? Jujitsu? Krav Maga? Taebo? Kenpo? English Longbow archery? Aikido? Which Aikido?

Does being older make it "better"? Are you asking us if a "sport" is "better" or "worse" than an "art"?

Also, most people seem to think that unlike karate or jujitsu we don't have a definite ideology or practical.

Which school of karate are you referring to? Shotokan? Chito-ryu? Goju-ryu? Isshin-ryu? Shuri-ryu? Kyokushinkai? Wado? Seido Jukou? What school of jujutsu are you referring to? Brazilian? German? Sambo? Judo? Small Circle? Shorinji kan?

Definate ideology? Practical? How do you define "practical" in the sense of an activity?

What do you guys think?

I think that either you are a beginner just starting to look at these issues and making fairly vague, unsupported claims that reflect a beginner's understanding of kendo, or you are someone who is deliberately trying to start a flamewar, either for fun or for edification of your already established viewpoint.

[bobdonny]

............ stuff..................

I think that either you are a beginner just starting to look at these issues and making fairly vague, unsupported claims that reflect a beginner's understanding of kendo, or you are someone who is deliberately trying to start a flamewar, either for fun or for edification of your already established viewpoint.

A bit unnecessary! You almost take it personally.

Remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers!