Zanshin on a downed opponent

**Kagerou** · 5th February 2008, 01:17 PM

Ok, this is a strange one but here goes.

I was flipping through an illustrated rule book in the bookstore the other day and a question popped into my head.

What's your zanshin after you strike an opponent who is on their back on the floor?

I was going to ask my teacher on Sunday but there was a freek "snowstorm" in the Tokyo area and my sensei cancelled class...

I managed to hold off posting this until today but it's been itching at my brain so I had to ask.

Your answers may just preserve what little sanity I have left so please onegaishimasu!

**mashu19** · 5th February 2008, 02:08 PM

I saw one guy get a point while hitting a downed opponent the other month.　He　basically did like a hiki men on him, but with the arms in a position as if he just hit a kote. Hmmm it`s hard to explain, but it sure looked good, and it was done the instand the opponent fell too, which I think was one of the crucial things.

P.S. I also got stuck in that snow storm and my practice wasn`t cancelled. Everyone was late cause of the trains too...lol

**Thunder** · 8th February 2008, 01:31 AM

Strike men, then firm pressure at Tsuki could be effective.

**Gideon** · 8th February 2008, 01:38 AM

Legionario found this ... umm ... ?interesting? attempt at resolving that question.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17094

**absenteekendoka** · 8th February 2008, 02:48 AM

.....makes me chuckle to think about this. A few years ago doing some drills I was in such a situation. The Kendoka I was attacking slipped on some sweat on the floor ( Left by the kickboxing class that had departed earlier courtesy of the July heat)

he went down, landing on his back, and I thought 'what the hell....just hit him'

As I went up to go men....... he TSUKId me!!! One handed thrust...absolutely flawless looking........ I laughed so hard I almost cried. Has to be one of my favourite moments in the dojo. And it all happened in the span of a few seconds.

My second favourite moment was at a grading...listening to one Kendokas kiai that sounded just like Goofy falling off a cliff.

**Gideon** · 8th February 2008, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by absenteekendoka

As I went up to go men....... he TSUKId me!!! One handed thrust...absolutely flawless looking...

...at which point he became a prisoner of war, embarked on a personal journey of self-healing, befriended a local daimyo (who incidentally was leading a rebellion in service of the Emperor) and his family, learned Japanese, learned kenjutsu, conquered his demons, killed the man responsible for sending him down the path of horrors that was his former life, and, end the end, convinced the Emperor that his most trusted advisor was really manipulating him for his own personal gain.

Moral of the story... keep him away from your wife.

Incidentally, does he look anything like this?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

**absenteekendoka** · 8th February 2008, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by Gideon

...at which point he became a prisoner of war, embarked on a personal journey of self-healing, befriended a local daimyo (who incidentally was leading a rebellion in service of the Emperor) and his family, learned Japanese, learned kenjutsu, conquered his demons, killed the man responsible for sending him down the path of horrors that was his former life, and, end the end, convinced the Emperor that his most trusted advisor was really manipulating him for his own personal gain.

Moral of the story... keep him away from your wife.

Incidentally, does he look anything like this?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

LOL!! Never thought about it till you mentioned it....awesome!! Still cackling!!

**007** · 8th February 2008, 05:33 AM

if this is in a competition, they usually immediately stop it before you have a chance to strike. Or maybe it's because my hits are too slow

**Kagerou** · 8th February 2008, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by 007

if this is in a competition, they usually immediately stop it before you have a chance to strike. Or maybe it's because my hits are too slow

You'd most likely have to be midstrike by the time they hit the ground for them to allow it which is why it's not a common occurance.

My sensei said something akin to gyaku-do zanshin would be appropriate. Hit then fade back just out of reach in a nice solid stance.

If anyone ever sees it or get into the situation please post your thoughts.

**bobdonny** · 8th February 2008, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kagerou

What's your zanshin after you strike an opponent who is on their back on the floor?

Step on his mune, point your shinai at his mengane and say "who your daddy no biatch!"

That failing showing zanshin is about being prepared for a counterstrike. Dont think about the ins and outs of what i should do in such a situation, just be prepared and it will show naturally.

**mashu19** · 8th February 2008, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kagerou

You'd most likely have to be midstrike by the time they hit the ground for them to allow it which is why it's not a common occurance.

My sensei said something akin to gyaku-do zanshin would be appropriate. Hit then fade back just out of reach in a nice solid stance.

If anyone ever sees it or get into the situation please post your thoughts.

Like i worte in my previous post, I`ve seen this a few times, the points rarely are scored on a downed opponent. Usuallt to get the point, the hit has to be given without hesitation, so if the fall, you hesitate, then hit no way will you get the point. Usually if you`ve stopped and hesitated just that bit, then the judges will call a stop. I think another important factor in scoreing the point is that your opponent shows no signs of defending themselves or trying to get up.

But as everyone has said, its rare to see a point given, but its not impossible.

**moocow65** · 22nd February 2008, 06:38 AM

I knocked someone down at a tournament as he was coming in for a men, then I hit his men, and since I couldn't follow through straightly because he was on the floor, I did my zanshin going diagonally. The shinpan gave me the point. My opponent was furious and refused to shake my hand because I was being too rough. Oh well, not my fault he only does suburi and I bench press/military press/leg squat.

**Charlie** · 23rd February 2008, 04:21 AM

This has happened to me a couple of times. One time I attacked my downed opponent's men and he blocked it! (That was pretty cool.) Just this passed weekend my opponent fell and I pressed in looking for an opportunity to attack, but then they called yame.

Truth is, as has been said, you have a split second to make this attack happen and, yeah, I think backwards or sideways zanshin is probably best. A guy hit a hiki gyaku doh at taikai this past weekend that was pretty damn cool lookign (and didn't score).

**NigelSponge** · 23rd February 2008, 07:42 AM

i've heard you have 3 second from the moment they hit the ground to strike before they halt the match. I think it should be thought of the same way as attacking after disarming your opponent, better hit em quick before the opportunity passes you by! Course, that leaves the question, if you fall on the ground, should u cover up, like some do when they get disarmed? or go for the knees and take your opponent down before he kills you (whats the best defense for falling down [if a pin point tsuki isnt in your repertoire =P])?
hmmmm.....i wonnnndderrrrrrr /drifts off in epic kendo daydream.