Always the same with the women

[foundinsea]

I'm male and I do kendo.

However, I and the other senior in our dojo have pondered the "how to get better female retention" question. And, our conclusion was that it really does take women to attract and help retain women.

Practicing with men is one thing, I'd say a completely separate issue to retention. Most men in the dojo are not particularly mean with the women we do have and the senior women we have do quite well against men (we also split new bogu from seniors for a short time so I think that helps). Personally the way I see it is that once you're in bogu you're not a man or woman...you're kendoka and I will treat you as such; I will not lay off on how hard I hit or reduce power in my fumikomi (except with kids). The women that I have had shiai with (not in our dojo, but a few beating me quite nicely from other ones) have taken it. I find women more intelligent when it comes to their approach to kendo if not for any other reason than knowing their physical limitations versus a man who may be much stronger (I say "may be" because not all men are - just cause he's big doesn't mean he's strong). But this is besides the point as this thread is about retention.

We only have 2 women in bogu (not counting the 3 women sensei we have - that don't show up regularly - well one does but her husband is also a sensei so sometimes she just watches their kids and teaches them). But we do have a bunch of newbies. I'm not expecting more than half of them new girls to stay but I see potential in a few of them. However, for the ones that come regularly what I do notice is that they have a preference to talk about things with the senior women, who in turn prefer to discuss things with the women sensei. I believe this helps not only encourage, but as many have already posted, bring a sense of sisterhood to their group...sort of a group within a group. There are just some ideas that men won't understand and only other women can really give advice on (as on this thread and forum) so having other women in the dojo is probably the largest contributor to retention. Although in our dojo's case, I think have a male 7-dan sensei that's as tall as they are and can "see" things from the perspective (as in height) helps...yes, our women kendoka are on the shorter side of vertical.

[Tort-Speed]

Since this thread was started by Yoda-Waza who then said (Feb. 2008) said they had 2 females who started Kendo last summer, just wondering
if they - or other females at other dojos - have continued? At mine, 14 years ago there were 11 adult women, excluding the 3~4 university Kendo teamers who come and go. Today, 9 continue (one moved far away, t'other after passing rokudan and our original dojo being rebuilt, attends a dojo near her home). But ours is a ji-keiko practice, with no drills or training to make you fall on the floor...unless you onegaishimas a "terminator" type,
but that's our choice to make.

[amandzing]

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
I don't. I think women who are looking for a martial art have a reasonable idea that physical contact is expected in a martial art, whichever one you choose to study.


• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
Cameraderie, friendship, the putting aside of the day and focussing on betterment of the self, (it's 2 hours of intense me-time)...many things...taking part in a sport that has its roots in ancient times...all of these and more.


• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
I can think of none. a general wish would be for kendoka to aim properly when doing do-cuts and hit armour instead of tattooing my ribs, but i think that applies to both sexes...

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
i don't think so. our sensei treats everyone the same and expects everyone to put in as much as he does, which is a lot. both sexes do the same drills and waza, and no quarter is given or asked.


• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo? i love kendo.

in an aside, and i have no official statistics to back this up, but the jump into bogu might be an issue. it was a huge shock to me, and i had to swallow my pride and step back a lot. it's taken me a while, but i'm getting more used to it, especially as i have been upping my fitness level outside the class. fitness aside, the learning curve when you first go into bogu is immense, and also, those first cuts that go astray can be a shock to someone who isn't used to it. again no stats, but i think a lot of people drop out when they go into bogu for the first time because it's so intense. perhaps a bridging class? or suck it up like people having been doing for years? maybe it's a filtration method, because at the end of the day, you probably only want the people there who really want to be there, who will raise the profile of kendo and not drag it down...

[yoda-waza]

Here's my update, since Tort-Speed asked. The two females I referred to back in February 2008 quit within a few weeks of practicing in bogu. The bogu-shock issue amandzing touched upon did them in. One could no longer stand being hit on the head and wrist, the other had trouble breathing (asthma was an issue). Since then we have had three other adult females join. Female #1 is a 2-Dan kenshi and 4-Dan in iaido who had taken an extended motherhood break but has returned now that her young sons are old enough to start kendo (that's one way to grow membership!). Female #2 has 15 years of karate background and has been practicing almost a year now (several months in bogu) alongside her husband who is a shotokan karate instructor. Female #3 is a newbie who seems sincere and comes to every practice so far - it is too early to speculate what will happen at bogu time, though.

I have been trying a kind of "bridging class" method with all new adults who stuck it out to bogu-time from among a group who began together at our second dojo location that we opened last spring for beginners. I encourage them to also practice with the advanced group at our original dojo location. The three so far that did the advanced practices realize how much they have to learn. No one has quit from among those in bogu. I worry about female #2 who has been alarmed by her wrist bruising, even though she has bruised her knuckles in karate, and about female #3 who, though physically fit and strong, has a gentle demeanor and has commented on her anxiety at striking people's heads.

Thank you all for your responses.

[Tort-Speed]

A karate background could help a female in bogu take the hits (albeit Shotokan not being full-contact). As for a bruised wrist, Nutmeg oil (mine was from Malaysia) works overnight to turn dark purple to pink. OT, but the stuff was used to reduce bruising when removing the jade bracelet placed on an infant, thought to protect him/her from injury. Since the "lucky" jade is fitted over a newborn's tiny hand, it gets too tight after a while and needs removing: ouch, thus the oil. If F #2 can find some, it's miraculous for Kendo and all bruises (+ possibly do more defense, countering an incoming men strike with kaishi doh rather than initiate men and get kote-whacked?, just a non-instructor's HO).

[Moonrise]

I know it's a bit of taboo for males to post in this forum, but I was poking about the fora in curiosity about what was here, and I actually have something to say, here. I've spent several years doing armored combat with the Society for Creative Anachronism, in which time I've had a few female friends who also participated in armored combat. One of them put me on to a book called "The Armored Rose," which is specifically aimed at females looking to get in to armored combat in the SCA.

In it, the author talks about the psychological problems. If you're not familiar, SCA armored combat involves serious armor, and we hit each other full-strength with rattan staves. I've walked off the field with some pretty serious bruises... so even though I'm a kendo noob, I'm not expecting to fall into the "bogu abyss." Aaaaaaanyway, one of the things that the author talks about is that, in the SCA, many women have a problem with actually hitting someone, because they've been raised all their lives to believe that good girls don't hit.

It's fascinating reading, and those of you who are teachers with female students might consider picking up a copy, even though it's not kendo-specific. The author is a former Air Force police officer, and her thoughts on women and combat have wider application than just SCA armored combat.

[IndigoGirl]

One of them put me on to a book called "The Armored Rose," which is specifically...

Oh please, not that crap again!
From my beginners course a much higher percentage of guys quit. Some of them even bought a bogu set but were afraid to wear it even once.
Yet nobody writes some pamphlet about those guys, assuming they have a psychological problem, are afraid of getting hit or worry about bruises.

So please stop thinking that women need to be namby pampied into bogu. Those who really like kendo will have no problem with bogu training, just as the guys.

[Moonrise]

Yet nobody writes some pamphlet about those guys, assuming they have a psychological problem, are afraid of getting hit or worry about bruises.

Perhaps problems is an overly strong word, and I apologize if I've offended. In fact, there are vast tracts written about men and sports, and about men and combat. It is my experience that men and women have both physical and psychological differences -- which is one of the reasons that men are drawn to women. These differences do not make one gender or the other "better," and it was not my intent to imply otherwise. I simply felt that the book in question might offer some insight to those who were looking for insight as to what the challenges faced by women in combat sports might be.

Those who really like kendo will have no problem with bogu training, just as the guys.

I agree, and end with that agreement.

[b8amack]

To tangent, sca guys (or girls, I would suppose, having no direct experience of that) are just as likely to quit as anyone, if not moreso, from what I've seen in both fencing and kendo.

[lcox]

Many of these things have been said already, but for my 2 cents:

In general:
It's natural that there are fewer women in kendo than men, but we should at least aim for 30% or so, which you can see in other martial arts and rough sports. It might just come down to publicizing the sport enough. If 3 women for every 7 men are interested in kendo, but 90% of all of them leave, it makes sense you have few to no women if you only draw in 10-20 new people each year. Publicize more broadly in general, and the numbers should improve. But that said, some basics can be in place:

1. I enjoyed starting out when there was a female role model (4-dan) in the club, and once she left, I look up to our smallest sensei - much of the strategy for women is really just strategy for short, small people. If you have no women in the club as role models, having one of your high ranked, but small men, reach out to new women may help.
2. As for all people, women will be more likely to stick with an activity if there are good relationships to nurture. Our club has yearly parties, periodically goes out after practice,and is generally friendly. I think this atmosphere helped keep me with the sport.

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
For those interested in the sport, no. I enjoy the aggression and competition of kendo, however, I don't enjoy pain!
1. You should let recommend getting men and kote pads along with bogu, and
2. quickly correct beginners who tend to hack painfully (and incorrectly) with the shinai

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
Self-improvement, competition, sword fighting is generally cool, respectful atmosphere (e.g. you appreciate the opponent who beats you for showing you your weaknesses).

• Do you think that some drills should be modified or not?
Modified drills would do a disservice to women, at least where co-ed tournaments are held. However, there may be additional drills for everyone that could particularly benefit women:
1. taiatari and hiki waza practice helped me learn more aggressive strategies, and
2. particular attention to kote practice since women often fight taller opponents.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
Probably would help keep more people in general - let people know when they do something well. People like doing what they're good at.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
1. Good relationships (husband and friends)
2. Motivation from competition (encourage new members to go to tournaments and promotions even before they're ready to participate to get motivated to succeed)

[MithLuin]

Of course men and women are different. And the differences aren't simply a result of social conditioning. Physiological, hormonal, whatever - men and women are built differently and think differently. I think we all recognize that.

Equally as obviously, as soon as I try to make generalizations about what those 'fundamental' differences are, we'll all think of individuals who don't fit the blatant stereotypes. So I'm not going to try . Best to remember that those types of traits are often on a sliding scale, and different people (male and female) will fall in different places. It's fair to generalize that the average woman is shorter than the average man, but obviously there are tall women and short men. Lots of variety in life, and individuals don't always fit the 'rule'. .

In my personal case, we have 2 or 3 constant women in our dojo of quite good level and they are able to participate in international championships and hold their own (in fact, they were 2nd place in this years south-american championship, which is a very good result if you consider they lost to the home team Brazil). I've seen that our dojo receives them with open arms and treats them as equals and so do I.

I tested at the Ken Zen Dojo at New York this sunday. I was watching the sho-dan test carefully because I was testing for the same rank. Out of everyone I watched, the person who impressed me the most was number 103.

103 was a woman.

I would like to share a story my chemistry professor shared with me during my freshman year of college. He'd been teaching the introductory class for chemistry/chemical engineering majors for 30+ years, so he'd seen a lot of students go through the school (which was recognized as top notch in those fields). When he began teaching, all students were male. This was the mid to late 60s, in America. Gradually, over time, women joined the class, and in time, the numbers evened out.

Each year, he held a competition for the honors sections, and once there were both guys and girls in the group, he made it 'male vs female' just because.

The women always won, in the beginning. Even when there were even numbers of guys and girls in the class (roughly), the girls still won. He was thrilled when a year finally came when the guys beat the girls. Why?

In the early days, only really dedicated women who were serious about chemistry would even think of majoring in it. So, naturally, they were a cut above the guys, really exceptional students, and that's why they were there. When the year came when the girls lost, it told him that no longer did the girls have to be better than the boys to consider chemistry. Finally, chemistry was for everyone. Sure, he still had exceptional female students (as well as males), but the double standard seemed to have eroded away.

As a woman sitting in his freshman class, knowing there were female professors in the chemistry department now, it gave me a historical perspective I would not otherwise have had. I never would have seen the girls winning as evidence of a disparity, something discouraging 'average' women from even attempting the major.

I realize that sticking with kendo isn't the same thing as sticking with a degree program at university. I have no idea how to apply that story to the retention of women in dojos. But I just wanted to point out that changes like this take time, so it might take a few generations (not years) for western women to wind up better represented in kendo. That doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong, necessarily.

[Solinde]

Lots of good things have already been said. To really know what a specific dojo needs to do to get more girls to stay/join I think you will have to look at that specific dojo. What specific problems does that dojo have? Some girls will not be comfortable sharing showers for example, while others would rather share showers than be cut off from the rest of the group. What kind of girls does this dojo attract (and then loose)? If most are mothers of young children, than that might be what's keeping them from practice. If most are young girls who end up ditching kendo for another sport, then there is probably something that can be done.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that I don't care much for the "if you like kendo, bogu training is not a problem" and "if bogu training is too much for you then you're not cut out for kendo" statements in this thread. This has nothing to do with gender for one, but mostly I just disagree. I loved kendo as a beginner but was scared off by bogu practice. It was really difficult, and took a long time to get over. Now I enjoy jigeiko, but if I didn't have a lot of other ties to the dojo (like iaido, and a kendoka for boyfriend) I would probably have been one of the early dropouts.

And also...I may get criticized for this, but still. Generally women tend to underestimate their abilites and men to overestimate their abilities. Of course this will not be true in all cultures or for all individuals, but it might be something worth considering.

Wow, that's quite long for the very short answer I was planning.

[yoda-waza]

OP here with another update. So we went from 2 to 0 adult female members a couple of years back but we are now up to 5, one of whom is a returning former member who is 2-Dan kendo and 4-Dan iado. Of the other four, one is 6-kyu in bogu struggling with the "I don't think I'm good enough for this" syndrome. She still practices, though less often than before bogu. The remaining three are relatively new but I'm hoping they hang in there to join the other two in bogu. Perhaps a certain number of females is what it takes to spark esprit de corps for mutual support. I thank you for all your opinions and experiences. If kendo is really just a personal journey and you persevere, regardless of your gender, then you are "good enough" for the journey.

[MartialArtsGirl]

Aaaaaaanyway, one of the things that the author talks about is that, in the SCA, many women have a problem with actually hitting someone, because they've been raised all their lives to believe that good girls don't hit.

I think this is true. Women are told that they are too masculine if they gain any muscle, and they are too masculine if they act too aggressive. Nobody wants to be too masculine!

Oh one BIG thing? Honestly, outside of very certain specific circles of people, even in the martial arts world, nobody really knows about kendo. I just met someone from Korea who did kendo which is the only reason I tried it. Every other (non-Asian) person I know knows someone who is Asian. (i.e. is married to or dated a Japanese person, etc). Maybe less women marry Asian men! lol

OP here with another update. So we went from 2 to 0 adult female members a couple of years back but we are now up to 5, one of whom is a returning former member who is 2-Dan kendo and 4-Dan iado. Of the other four, one is 6-kyu in bogu struggling with the "I don't think I'm good enough for this" syndrome. She still practices, though less often than before bogu. The remaining three are relatively new but I'm hoping they hang in there to join the other two in bogu. Perhaps a certain number of females is what it takes to spark esprit de corps for mutual support. I thank you for all your opinions and experiences. If kendo is really just a personal journey and you persevere, regardless of your gender, then you are "good enough" for the journey.

There are a lot of girls in my dojo, but I don't think that has much to do with why I am sticking with it (so far!) anyway. Actually girls often drive me nuts (in general) and I often find it easier to make friends with guys. But maybe it is making a subtle difference who knows.

Its been what, a year or so now since I started? Almost two? Kendo is very very difficult and I am getting very very very frustrated, but I don't like giving up on hard things. I think I have the "I don't think I'm good enough at this" syndrome too. I wonder if girls are more susceptible to that? Actually I really don't think I am that great, BUT, maybe it doesn't matter.

Anyway I wonder if Hyun Sensei has commented in this thread yet? He's one of the Sensei's at my dojo and from what I hear, my dojo does have an awful lot of girls compared to how it could be. I bet he could add to this thread if he hasn't already.

[UnimportantHero]

I think this is true. Women are told that they are too masculine if they gain any muscle, and they are too masculine if they act too aggressive. Nobody wants to be too masculine!

Agreed.

Some want to be just masculine enough!