Always the same with the women

[Alicia]

Currentlywe have only two of us girls in our dojo, both of us are nidan. Our instructor wants to start a womens class this year, which may seem silly with only two of us, but w are hoping to attract more women this way. It is saying "look girls do kendo, we even have a specific class" hopefully this will take away the intimidating aspect of starting in a class full of guys, and then when their skill/confidence builds they will be happy to integrate in the rest of the club. Thats the plan anyhow. We will be startig this soon.

Does anyone else run a specific women's training?

[Kenzan]

Currentlywe have only two of us girls in our dojo, both of us are nidan. Our instructor wants to start a womens class this year, which may seem silly with only two of us, but w are hoping to attract more women this way.

I am curious as to why your Sensei feels the need for a separated class based solely upon gender?
Will this be an "adult women's class" or will it include children?
Certainly if the idea is based upon; "Female kenshi only fight female Kenshi in Shiai" this sort of training can be handled during a normal pre-shiai class, but why the need for a wholly separate set of instruction?

On what basis of empirical evidence collected is it assumed that an all-girls class would attract more girls?

What aspects of training are looking at to be changed?
-and why?

Of course you should not feel compelled to answer that at all,
Just some food for thought.

[yoda-waza]

I am thankful to all who have replied, especially the females (I'm guessing at gender where the reply makes no distinction). In particular, Alison, Raindrop, babayaga and Alicia have touched on the insights I was hoping for.

In contrast, some of you guys responded in a way that was not as helpful. In fact you seemed affronted by the thought of modified drills or separate practices, as if you assume what is best for men should be no different for women. I was trying to broach this subject without appearing condescending or chauvinistic. I felt female feedback would be best to clue me in - I can get feedback from guys anytime. Some women, though certainly not all, may be more reserved, demure, shy - whatever - than a guy might be but they may still have the quiet resolve to persevere, whether for personal reasons, camaraderie or something else. If there is something in training that would better draw out the best in a new female member, could it hurt to ask here?

It pains me to see a promising female member being clobbered senseless by a male member with something to prove, especially if they are both fairly new to practice in bogu and neither have developed proper tenouchi. Kendo is not about brute strength or testosterone, of course, but there is no denying the physical difference in this regard among men and women. Despite the disparity, there are female kenshi here in the U.S. that have developed their kendo to a high degree not just practicing exclusively with other women. Those that I know of don't have bulging muscles (not that I checked, you understand ) but they are mentally and physically strong, very quick in movement and embued with confidence, humility and equanimity. We all should aspire to those qualities regardless of gender. I just want to improve the circumstances in our dojo that can better assure that opportunity for females practicing with us.

Keep the comments coming. I'm hoping to hear from female sensei, too.

[Alicia]

I am curious as to why your Sensei feels the need for a separated class based solely upon gender?
Will this be an "adult women's class" or will it include children?
Certainly if the idea is based upon; "Female kenshi only fight female Kenshi in Shiai" this sort of training can be handled during a normal pre-shiai class, but why the need for a wholly separate set of instruction?

On what basis of empirical evidence collected is it assumed that an all-girls class would attract more girls?

What aspects of training are looking at to be changed?
-and why?

Of course you should not feel compelled to answer that at all,
Just some food for thought.

Ok, where to start...

The initial reasoning behind having a women's class is that kendo can be seen initially as being loud, smelly and violent. These are not attributes that would generally appeal to your 'average' women. However, all of us on here know that kendo has a much broader appeal blah blah, *add in whatever your reason is for loving kendo*. I believe that when most of us saw kendo first, we could see through these 'negative' aspects of it and find the appeal to ourselves. It may be that as males it is easier to overcome these obstacles, or even, (typically) not notice them or see it as a problem. But i think it can be offputting to many girls.

We are not trying to tone kendo down here, the aim is that once people can get over the initial hurdle, they will stay for life. But by having a womens class we hope to make it more appealing/encouraging for women to start (maybe we are trying to trick them into falling in love with the real kendo, who knows). But the truth is, in NZ the predominant sport for women is netball, which is an all female sport, and just about every other sport is separated by gender, and had many female members. Traditionally 'male' and rougher sports such as rugby have a far fewer female quota. So maybe a lot of women like having female buddies to train with and socialise with afterwards, especially initially. I can't see that being too difficult to understand. Empirical evidence it may not be, but it is surely a trend.

I don't believe that people should be separated forever, in fact i think it is likely to be disadvantageous, but there is nothing wrong with using womens classes to 'bait the hook' as it may be, or at least take develop different peoples motivations in starting kendo. As i said, long term, integration is key, but there are also benefits. As mentioned, it is a good chance to train against other girls for shiai, not every girl and every guy fights differently, but there can be big differences, so it is good to train for them, and acknowledge the realities that your female opponent is different from your male training buddies (looking more from my selfish point of view than the new beginners.)

Training will not be hugely different, although may be able to have a bit more emphasis on individuals motivations for starting (fitness, self confidence etc). Maybe less kakarigeiko than in regular training, more emphasis on mental side of things, who knows, I am not in charge of that, and of course it depends on the particular group of beginners, but then so does all kendo. So no more difference than there would be if it was any other group. The plan is for it to be adults/teenageers, but of course if we get some keen kids, who are we to turn them away .

The main idea comes down to not division, but development of confidence. For sure there are probably boys that are less confident, but we can't really run a 'shy boys only' class, where as it is wholly possible to run a women's class, so why not?

Sorry for the long rambly post!

(And we just had a seminar at which 3/5 visiting sensei were women, so if i had seen this last week i could have asked them!!)

Thank you,

Alicia

[Moose]

How to get more adult women into kendo? ...............Grow your own.

Attract the teenage girls from school & college and nurture them. Once they're hooked you'll have a healthy crop of young women and that inturn makes it more attractive for others.

[ne0r]

I think it is a good idea to spend some thinking on how to integrate more women into kendo. It is quite sad that there are only so few of them around even though kendo is not so gender-specific like for example rugby.

Lots of things to learn for myself from this thread, too, thanks everyone. I like the ideas that people came up with. Building up the ladies' confidence is crucial, I think, with so many men around them.

I am sorry that I cannot really contribute to this thread other than saying that you do a great job!

[Kenzan]

In contrast, some of you guys responded in a way that was not as helpful. In fact you seemed affronted by the thought of modified drills or separate practices, as if you assume what is best for men should be no different for women.

My point is that if there is an problem in a Dojo with people being allowed to be too rough on females, children, or anyone, (common sense should apply) or if Kenshi are purposefully hurting other students, then I submit to you, that the issue is with the culture of that Dojo, not with something lacking in Kendo itself. I think this is the issue that's not really being addressed.

The Dojo should be a place where anyone feels welcome.

[yoda-waza]

My point is that if there is an problem in a Dojo with people being allowed to be too rough on females, children, or anyone, (common sense should apply) or if Kenshi are purposefully hurting other students, then I submit to you, that the issue is with the culture of that Dojo, not with something lacking in Kendo itself. I think this is the issue that's not really being addressed.

The Dojo should be a place where anyone feels welcome.

No, it's not the "culture of the dojo" - we don't promote violence, Kenzan. The roughness I speak of is individual, usually among beginners with poor technique, and is corrected as soon as possible. But it still happens, even if unintentionally, and has been discouraging in the past to the very few women here that have stuck it out long enough to start practicing in bogu. It's not whether something is "lacking", certainly not kendo nor the way our dojo practices it, otherwise we wouldn't still be around after almost forty years. You might address your own thread to this separate issue so that it doesn't diverge from this one.

Our dojo IS a place where everyone is meant to feel welcome. That's why I started this thread.

I'm looking for female feedback, though.

[mugennochikara]

many women take up kendo for their enjoyment. Many aspire to be team members of their federation or of TEAM USA. Women set goals and train hard , learn various wazas use those skills gained to compete against men or women .Gender does not matter because men or women are practicing and competing in a sport they love and respect. It's not always about power. Technique and strategy play a big role in Kendo.

[yoda-waza]

I don't disagree with any of that. Kendo is gender-less and is not about power. I encourage all members, male and female, to aspire toward their goals. However, my questions remain open to feedback from female members here, thank you.

[Kenzan]

No, it's not the "culture of the dojo" - we don't promote violence, Kenzan. The roughness I speak of is individual, usually among beginners with poor technique, and is corrected as soon as possible. But it still happens, even if unintentionally, and has been discouraging in the past to the very few women here that have stuck it out long enough to start practicing in bogu. It's not whether something is "lacking", certainly not kendo nor the way our dojo practices it, otherwise we wouldn't still be around after almost forty years. You might address your own thread to this separate issue so that it doesn't diverge from this one.

Our dojo IS a place where everyone is meant to feel welcome. That's why I started this thread.

The intention in my response was not to say that "your Dojo" specifically has any sort of problem so it really wasn't aimed at you.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the crux of your original question of the thread is "Why are there less female students generally in Kendo, and what can be done to generate more interest/retention in Kendo by women?" I am certain many students of Kendo also share this feeling, so I think your question is a quite valid and poignant one, which has a difficult answer that may not be so easy to address as simple training segregation.

Suggestion:
Have you tried formulating a questionnaire that you could possibly circulate at at your next Shiai?
I think you may receive more useful results.

[Paikea]

Normal girls don't do sports, let alone staying on for an odd martial art that involves getting hit hard by men.

I've heard a rumor that the good ones (kendo girls) hit back. Humor aside, this is a great thread...

Maybe I missed it, but for girls/women beginning in bogu, I feel a well-fitting men and a kote pad are essential. If you can keep them from getting hurt in the first few weeks after bogu goes on, the odds seem to improve that they will stay. Having said that, we still have exactly one woman who we would consider a long-timer at Obukan. It's a problem.

[turboyoshi]

However, my questions remain open to feedback from female members here, thank you.

Well I'm not female but I hope it's ok if I add my thoughts.

I like Alicia's idea of a female only class and I think it certainly cannot hurt. In American culture, when it comes to physical activities, it's sort of expected anyway. At the least, if you try to segregate the beginners for a while, you may be able to determine if you really are losing students to the intimidation factor.

You definitely need to start collecting data to find out why they're leaving. Maybe on the signup forms you could have questions designed to find out what made them choose to try kendo. And if they leave, maybe a follow up call to determine why they left?

I think asking the women here is helpful but you're not getting the whole picture because as a general rule, these women aren't going to be representatve of the general population. These are just the crazy ones.

Seriously though, the women on this list seem generally stronger minded than I think is average, or maybe just more tomboyish. To draw in more from the general population, a segregated class seems like a good idea. Once they get hooked and you have enough female sempai to go around, you won't have to segregate newcomers because the sempai can be the buffer the new women may need.

sean

[yoda-waza]

Thank you for your thoughts, turbo. I am looking for "the crazy ones" responses. The ones that have gone are through with kendo for whatever reasons. It's the one that stay I want to hear from.

[PlutoInLove]

I've thought very carefully about this thread, and about what to suggest, and I think I have come up with some really good ideas. So don't get discouraged, yoda-waza-san, I'm taking this very seriously and I think I have some good imput for you-- and also I am a female, like you specified! *looks down* Yep, boobies, definitely female.

However, I just got back from a very long practice and I'm just exhausted. Me and my kendo-partner (my sensei has disappeared off the face of the earth, so me and a friend get together to practice whenever we can to try to keep up our skills while we decide about switching dojos permenently) talked about this the whole time, and we scribbled down some of our thoughts, so as soon as I get a little sleep and stretch out my aching muscles, I'll throw it all together in a cohesive and cogent manner and put it online.

I know that this post was totally pointless, ultimately, but I couldn't resist. I'm just so excited from practice tonight and all the brainstorming we did that I couldn't help but pipe up. Blame the adrenaline! Anyhoo, I promise my post tomorrow will more than make up for this spammy nonsense. Trust me!