Always the same with the women

[ReKru]

Hm. I dunno what I think of that article.

Neither do I. That's why I posted it for discussion.
It's actually a good topic with the opportunity to shed some light on both side's behaviour.

It suggests the same thing we're trying to avoid, doesn't it, saying that a woman is all women? And that a woman has to face these hurdles but men don't?

Well, I agree with the majority that the author (a woman, as I said, but I really don't remember the source) seems to have a personal agenda.
But it's still obvious that there *are* some differences between the genders. In how they percieve and react to certain things.
You can see that separation in education starting in kindergarten - with "boy toys" and "girl toys", with "boy games" and "girl games".
Maybe this really has an impact on how you become in your later life and maybe analyzing it has the potential to help you overcome your own (socially imposed/artificial) "boundaries".

That 'punishment' thing - meh - strikes me as odd, but there might be something to it that the author misses and therefor draws the wrong conclusions.

I was raised as a nurturer, sure, I'm the eldest of six children. But you want to tell me that that means I'm not a physically aggressive person when I need to be? I'll laugh in your face.

When you need to be.
I hit people with sticks, because I can, not because I need to.
Maybe it's because of that "Boy's game" thing. I don't know.

[come_love_sleep]

Maybe this really has an impact on how you become in your later life and maybe analyzing it has the potential to help you overcome your own (socially imposed/artificial) "boundaries".

This is true--self-analysis is rarely a bad thing. But I think the author isn't self-aware enough to really understand what she's going for. It's an interesting piece as the beginning of a transformation; but if she stops there, with such a flawed basis, she's not going to grow or really learn anything.

I think that she should back off a little bit from the idea that women are This Way(and that This Way is different for bisexuals or lesbians or asexuals or transwomen, 'cause they're Not Like Me), and consider maybe that people who have trouble with the aggression simply haven't thought it through before putting themselves in a situation that required it.

When you need to be.
I hit people with sticks, because I can, not because I need to.
Maybe it's because of that "Boy's game" thing. I don't know.

Well, yeah, it's not like I took up kendo because I'm going to have to have it to survive. But I meant, I willingly put myself in a situation where I will have to be aggressive, and I do so full-well understanding what that means, not expecting any special treatment just because I come equipped with a uterus.

[turboyoshi]

(Also it's somewhat suggestive of a fault in the author that s/he thinks 'possessing a different sexual orientation' should make any difference whatsoever.)

The way I read it, she's saying that being gay does not make you immune to these pitfalls. Ie. just cause you think you're ultra butch, doesn't mean you don't subconsciously accept the cultural conditioning of your gender.

I'm not convinced I agree with her on this matter though. To acknowledge your sexual orientation is different from the mainstream, is already to have questioned, and rejected, the culural norm. If anything, this should make you more aware of internal bias and thus further along in your ability to overcome them.

I also consider the article to be amateurish in it's understanding of psychology and I doubt her numbers came from any controlled studies. Regardless, she's not saying anything we don't already know.
Each gender faces cultural conditioning and this may affect one's performance in certain activities, specifically martial ones.

It seems to me that kendo already addresses these issues considering it's philosophy towards one's mental development. To be aware of the 4 poisons and overcome them. That's really all this author is describing in different detail.

sean

[ne0r]

I think, in general, that it's a good idea to adjust your approach to someone, especially a beginner, according to the person him/herself.
There certainly are gender differences that may lead to misunderstanding, but in my opinion everyone has to face difficulties, they're different for everyone.

What we as kendoka have to consider is that kendo, being a male-dominated martial art, may use training methods that are better suited for men. Especially very physical kendo may be hard to get along with for women.
So I think it would be very interesting to take a nearer look at a martial art that is female-dominated, i.e. naginatado (as far as I know at least in Japan female-dominated).


"You can see that separation in education starting in kindergarten - with "boy toys" and "girl toys", with "boy games" and "girl games".
Maybe this really has an impact on how you become in your later life and maybe analyzing it has the potential to help you overcome your own (socially imposed/artificial) "boundaries"." (Rekru)
While there certainly are differences between gender I don't really see anything bad in them. We just are different, neither is this artificial nor should it be seen as "boundaries" in my humble opinion.

[ReKru]

I think, in general, that it's a good idea to adjust your approach to someone, especially a beginner, according to the person him/herself.
There certainly are gender differences that may lead to misunderstanding, but in my opinion everyone has to face difficulties, they're different for everyone.

What we as kendoka have to consider is that kendo, being a male-dominated martial art, may use training methods that are better suited for men. Especially very physical kendo may be hard to get along with for women.
So I think it would be very interesting to take a nearer look at a martial art that is female-dominated, i.e. naginatado (as far as I know at least in Japan female-dominated).

But isn't that gender-bias, just from a different angle?
Not all guys are 1,90+ and 'built for kendo' (not even all top competitors).

While there certainly are differences between gender I don't really see anything bad in them. We just are different, neither is this artificial nor should it be seen as "boundaries" in my humble opinion.

Well, that's the question. How much of that difference is what we 'are' and how much is 'educated difference'.
If you're a boy and entrenched in your 'boy' behaviour enough to never feel the urge to play with barbies, you're not going to see the constrictions.
But if you're a girl and educated to 'don't get your pretty clothes dirty', playing in the mud with boys does has it's obstacles to you (I guess).

[ne0r]

But isn't that gender-bias, just from a different angle?
Not all guys are 1,90+ and 'built for kendo' (not even all top competitors).

Perhaps you could call it that way, but what I meant was:
If
1) There are gender differences
2) Kendo's target is improvement, what not only means self-improvement but also improvement of training methods
3) Kendo is male-dominated
4) Different training methods are suited for different people
then
Kendo uses practise methods that are better suited for men. 4) and 1) would mean, that there are practise methods that are better suited for women et vice versa, because gender is a way to sum up a group of people that share the same attributes.
This would mean that kendo unevitably will use practise methods that are better suited for men. That's nothing very pleasant, but that's what I think.
Now our task would be to change 3) ^^

Well, that's the question. How much of that difference is what we 'are' and how much is 'educated difference'.
If you're a boy and entrenched in your 'boy' behaviour enough to never feel the urge to play with barbies, you're not going to see the constrictions.
But if you're a girl and educated to 'don't get your pretty clothes dirty', playing in the mud with boys does has it's obstacles to you (I guess).

In my head it loos like this:
There is genetic legacy and there is legacy of idea. "Educated differences" is legacy of idea. In general there is nothing bad with this. I really don't see anything bad in gender differences!
But still "bad" ideas can be handed down, too. Like women doing the same work and still getting paid less; that's absolutely unjust. But fortunately the legacy of idea seems to be subject to selection, too

Oh, and there is bad education.


Only my two cents.

I hope that all is understandable.

[Lady_Kitsune]

About the topic of this thread, well in my case I've always hated that ppl treat me different cos I'm a girl, in kendo I found that there is no difference at all and male and female can do the same excersice and get strong in the same way.

about the questions

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
In most of the cases that is correct. Cos, even though women wants to be the same as men, there are still too many prejudice about how the treatment must be towards girls. So yeah, most of the girls I've saw passing by on my dojo got really scared.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
Is not my case, been practicing for two years or so now and for me Kendo is not about violence, even if you see it violent, is about personal growth, self control and discipline and I love that, helds my persoality down (I have my character and kendo helds me down a bit)

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
If I understood the word drill correctly, no I don't thing they have to modify them at all.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
I think the instruction methots must help female and male members the same way.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
The spirit of trying to do it better and being better all the time

[max]

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
- for sure, the standard girl just will not do kendo, period. but i know for a fact that kendo does attract certain kinds of females (just like a lot of other martial arts), either those with a burning desire to become stronger/more violent, or those who want to be able to simply protect themselves. i guess kendo does not have as much of that "self-defense" aspect that attracts females to things like taekwondo or karate, so it's less popular.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
- i actually...and this might sound very strange...but i love the sound of the wooden floor getting stomped on and target getting hit. i've also been told that i'm an innately violent person, but that's not exactly what i want to be. i want to be more controlled, and be able to focus my strength (what little of it) on one specific goal, instead of flailing around in an attempt to get a point. i think kendo helps me with this kind of discipline.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
- keep it as it is.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
- i don't know any particular methods, but what i hate most is when people go light on me, so light that their shinai does not even tap lightly on my kote or men, it just stops right above and they go past me as if they've actually got the hit. some people might think that it's better to do that, in case i get hurt, and i understand that. but at the same time i want to be treated the same as everybody else, so it's extremely frustrating to not be able to experience a real shiai (even if it is just in practice time) if i'm not being taken seriously.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
- i just want to be destroy the false impressions people have of me, and prove to myself that this is something that i can actually be good at.

[imouto]

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?

It's what attracted me to kendo. And no, I'm not a tomboy.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?

I like the discipline and spiritual side of it. In addition to this, really there's not many sports out there that encourage you to hit a live target and yell, (well kiai). I love the uniform.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?

I've only just started. Not sure if I am at all qualified to answer this one. I think the drills so far are fine. I've had no problem with them unless I get sloppy and my posture becomes incorrect. But that's my fault.

And can I emphasise the importance of a good sports bra here? Really absolutely necessary.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?

I have no idea. I've not noticed any.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?

The club I belong to is fun. The support is terrific whereby people will offer advice as to how to get technique correct. They also pull me up when I'm being too hard on myself. Three kendo lessons in and I was bitterly disappointed in not being able to get a successive Dō cuts correctly. I was told that this was somewhat of a rather high expectation as it is one of the more difficult cuts to learn.

[Menpō]

My two cents.....
Beginning Kendo is hard enough....its a shock to the mind and body...from a group of about 30 beginners who started...I was the only one who continued after the first 3 months. I have seen other groups come and go and more than 90% will drop out. Recently our Dojo had quite a good share of female beginners and there were 2 or 3 I thought had it in them...but again they have all dropped out...even after investing Keikogi act. I was really disappointed because I had hopped those individuals would prove everyone wrong.

Of the 2 or 3 regular female Kendoka who have stuck around....my observation would be -
1) They are afraid to be hit, OR
2) When not afraid to be hit...they over compensate with an unnecessary level of violence and physical strength
3) When 2 above fails - they lose their form, temper and discipline

I sometimes practice with female Kendoka from Japan and Korea and of course the above could not be said to be true and I value their teaching (and the thumps I get on my Men). Should the question posed instead be qualified as "western women" or "women in a western society”?

To be slightly more unscientific -maybe women see Kendo as a social forum...a way to meet other people of either sex, something to say you've done, a conversation starter? The dedication of your time, of your body and your spirit to Kendo...seems to me to be lacking in women. But then again maybe we should qualify this by understanding the differences in the cultural significance of Martial Arts between East and West.

I will not give up hope but continue to look foward to having more females join Kendo and will do everything I can to encourage them to stick around.

[Menpō]

PS - ONE THING THAT CAN BE DONE - would be to have experience female Kendoka teach beginers when they start if even for a few classes. That way female beginers will see that there are female Kendoka out there and even female instructors!

[selegilineHCL]

I tested at the Ken Zen Dojo at New York this sunday. I was watching the sho-dan test carefully because I was testing for the same rank. Out of everyone I watched, the person who impressed me the most was number
103.

103 was a woman.

[Alison2805]

To be slightly more unscientific -maybe women see Kendo as a social forum...a way to meet other people of either sex, something to say you've done, a conversation starter? The dedication of your time, of your body and your spirit to Kendo...seems to me to be lacking in women. But then again maybe we should qualify this by understanding the differences in the cultural significance of Martial Arts between East and West.

Kendo as a social forum? What, like sport? Or like joining a university club? Well, yeah only women would be silly enough to do that, obviously.

Thats one of the reasons EVERYONE joins ANY kind of activity - To meet people, to do something different, get out and get active, have an interest in common with other people. Why do you think men join kendo?

The only people that join kendo to have a "conversation starter" are the samurai wannabes and ninja kids. They all drop out, and generally they are 99% male.

As for women lacking dedication - I know one or two women who arent very dedicated to thier kendo. But I know over a dozen guys who arent dedicated to their kendo. I dont think there is much difference.

If you look at the percentage of women who start and stick at kendo and work their asses off to improve, its MUCH HIGHER than the percentage of men who start and get right into it. Not that I think these kinds of "statistics" have anything to do with dedication, the price of eggs in China, or whether it will rain tomorrow.

What is it with old threads being revived this week anyway??

[Alison2805]

double post.... bloody internet

[Alison2805]

I tested at the Ken Zen Dojo at New York this sunday. I was watching the sho-dan test carefully because I was testing for the same rank. Out of everyone I watched, the person who impressed me the most was number
103.

103 was a woman.

It happens once in a millenia, like a passing comet. You probably wont see it again in your lifetime. I hope you took pictures to show your grandkids.