I love Americans!

[padishah]

I love Americans!

How nice for you.

[ChaShu]

I wonder if I can sell space on my gi and hakama to corporate sponsors? Maybe Advil, Rub A5-35, Febreeze, Bissel Steam Cleaners, Gatorade, the local ER...

[Kendoboy]

I wonder, if kendo was actually televised, would companies want to sponsor you? would a small nike swoosh actually detract from the art? maybe a mon on the do with a cup of top ramen in the circle?

I personally would be OK with sponsorship if the ZNKR put restrictions and rules on outfits. Like only putting a small logo where the mon would be. No garrish stars and stripes hakama please!

[padishah]

Seems disrespectful to me, God help us, is nothing free of commercial contamination these days?

What a wretched world!

I'll never support such things, Japanese martial arts should be done as traditionally as possible. Either that or just create 'western' spin-offs and break the links once and for all.

"Welcome to 'Stick Whacking', based on Kendo, registered trademark of the Soul-less Corporation!"

Why is it such views always come from the other side of the pond?

[Kingofmyrrh]

Seems disrespectful to me, God help us, is nothing free of commercial contamination these days?

What a wretched world!

I'll never support such things, Japanese martial arts should be done as traditionally as possible. Either that or just create 'western' spin-offs and break the links once and for all.

"Welcome to 'Stick Whacking', based on Kendo, registered trademark of the Soul-less Corporation!"

Why is it such views always come from the other side of the pond?

I think it's pretty ignorant to claim that most of these ideas come from 'the other side of the pond'.
I also don't think that it's fair to describe sports sponsorship as 'commercial contamination'. Sure, the high profile examples such as Beckham or whatever big US stars are around (sorry, I know absolutely nothing about any major US sports) could well be criticized as just that, but for the vast majority of professional sports players, corporate sponsorship is what allows them to play their sport full time. I don't perceive doing what it takes to do what you love as being a sell out.
I should add that I too find the prospect of sponsorship in kendo, at least in a visible form, fairly distasteful. However, I don't do kendo full time - I have other means of supporting myself (and my family, had I one).
Every so often you hear rumblings that the police in Japan are considering cutting down or abolishing kendo as an official activity. It's common knowledge that there aren't enough school kendo coaching jobs (because kendo is decreasing in popularity) to satisfy the demand from graduates of educational universties (who produce the vast majority of kendo coaches). It seems inevitable that at some point the time will come when the number of people doing kendo professionally via these traditional/legitimate channels will decrease dramatically. This will surely mean a lack of extremely high quality kendoka, which is a pretty much a self-perpetuating change. Sponsorship may provide a means to halt this (although I don't like the idea, nor do I believe that there are many companies that would be foolish enough to sponsor kendo, since they'd get very little return). So don't write things off immediately. We may not like the idea of sponsorship, but through the ages kendo has changed a hell of a lot just to survive to the present day - and though we may love kendo as it has come to be now, you can bet that the people who saw these previous changes were as opposed to them as we are to any change to the kendo we now know.

[Kendoboy]

Seems disrespectful to me, God help us, is nothing free of commercial contamination these days?

What a wretched world!

I'll never support such things, Japanese martial arts should be done as traditionally as possible. Either that or just create 'western' spin-offs and break the links once and for all.

"Welcome to 'Stick Whacking', based on Kendo, registered trademark of the Soul-less Corporation!"

Why is it such views always come from the other side of the pond?

I take offence to this because I AM from the other side of the pond. Perhaps I should clarify my previous post. I think that commercialization is definetly crap, and that martial arts in general should be kept traditional, but with the way the world is going, sponsorship may come about wether we want it or not. With the ZNKR constantly looking to promote the art in foreign countries, and the lack of media coverage for tournaments wether they be 'across the pond' or in europe, a corporate sponsor may be just the ticket to open the eyes of the masses to kendo. Take for example the new advert starring david beckham. Was this not a British ad??? Although not specifically an ad for kendo, it did in a roundabout way go towards promoting the art, and was the product of one of the largest corporations on the planet. Bearing this in mind, I said that I would be ok with sponsorship as long as it was limited with rules and restrictions. Without them, more ads featuring kendo are bound to crop up, perhaps not showing the art in it's true martial light, and reducing it to as you say, 'some form of stick fighting'.

padishah, You need to grow up and realize that if you want the art you love to be protected, you need to acknowledge the possibility of corporate entities becoming involved, and take precautions now so that they may not spoil the virtue of kendo, as has happened with judo.

[Darth Neighbour]

i wonder, why its not called "freedom-hakama"
looks like a huge popcornbag

[padishah]

I take offence to this because I AM from the other side of the pond.

OK, I'm not making an apology for an observation.

Perhaps I should clarify my previous post. I think that commercialization is definetly crap, and that martial arts in general should be kept traditional, but with the way the world is going, sponsorship may come about wether we want it or not.

That's hypocritical, either you want it or don't, you can't have it both ways. If you don't want it, resist it. I choose to resist it.

With the ZNKR constantly looking to promote the art in foreign countries, and the lack of media coverage for tournaments wether they be 'across the pond' or in europe, a corporate sponsor may be just the ticket to open the eyes of the masses to kendo.

Not necessarily, why does everything need to be big business? Like I said, either you want it or you don't. I don't want to see any traditional martial art reduced to a mere sport like football.

Take for example the new advert starring david beckham. Was this not a British ad???

I'm sorry I don't know what you're on about, that prissy idiot may be of interest to some in my country but don't generalise, I know nothing of him or the sport he plays. If that is the kind of image you want for Kendo then my original comments stand.

Although not specifically an ad for kendo, it did in a roundabout way go towards promoting the art, and was the product of one of the largest corporations on the planet. Bearing this in mind, I said that I would be ok with sponsorship as long as it was limited with rules and restrictions. Without them, more ads featuring kendo are bound to crop up, perhaps not showing the art in it's true martial light, and reducing it to as you say, 'some form of stick fighting'.

OK, but I don't know what you're on about really. I don't see WHY you would want it, it's survival is not under threat, apart from the perennial desire to make everything a commercial commodity and leave nothing special, it does not need to become a victim of commercialisation.

padishah, You need to grow up and realize

Now you are being offensive, wanting corporations to stay clear of traditional art forms is not being immature. I don't want it televised or reduced to a mere sport, or any traditional martial art. Sorry to disagree with you.

that if you want the art you love to be protected,

I see, so Kendo and shall we throw a few others in the fray like Iaido, will be wiped from the face of the earth without corporate money? Rubbish. It's managed fine until now, most people have heard of Kendo without some corporation sticking it's logos all over the place.

you need to acknowledge the possibility of corporate entities becoming involved, and take precautions now so that they may not spoil the virtue of kendo, as has happened with judo.

And you need to acknowledge that differences of opinion exist. I want to practice traditional martial arts, as close as possible to their original Japanese contexts, I don't mind Japanese caligraphy hanging off the walls but I don't want the Nike logo. Sorry for offending your sensibilities but it's gone too far and a line needs to be drawn. Some things should be left alone. I make no apology for my beliefs and no apology for observing that such views come quicker from your side of the pond than ours, though I concede that may be changing with the likes of Beckham et al.

My view, my belief is keep the big bucks away, keep it as traditional as possible, as close to it's cultural context as possible, or it becomes another westernised, commercialised "sport" and yes, nothing more than stick whacking.

[Kendoboy]

Padishah, you are completely missunderstanding what I'm writing, and taking it out of context. Let me put this as simply as I can for you:

I am against sponsorship.

I do however see the looming involvement of corporations, by which I mean adverts with kendo in them, corporate logos hanging off the walls in tournaments, people advertizing their business with it's name on their zekken (DISCLAIMER: no offence to e-bogu, or Ariga sensei, whom I respect, it's just an example of how companies can become involved).

What I do beleive, which is NOT hypocritical, is that if we want to keep the art traditional, we need to be pro-active in finding a solution. We can't wait until as has happened with judo, people are wearing flashy red kendogi's that feature sponsors logos, and say, 'oh crap, I guess we should have done something about that'.

If as you say, you want to resist sponsorship, and practice kendo as close as possible to the original japanese context, we all need to get our heads out of the sand, and either make rules right now that prohibit corporate logos, or draw a line as to what we otherwise find acceptable, BEFORE there is a problem.

[grasshopper_r2]

Along these same lines: there will always be traditionalists and there will always be persons willing to step over to a "sport Type" competition. Examples: Karate, Judo, JuJutsu.... Tradionalists will hold to the old ways, and the Sport players will go which ever the competition takes them. This is an unavoidable truth. The true choise lies within the individual, and how they are instructed. The other more humerous side of the arguement is (as I have seen time and time again) the traditionalists will dominate competition. This leads to a popularity of "Traditional" training that only last until the "Sport Types" deside its too demanding, or there is too much useless BS (as a cop-out). However the traditionalists will continue to train and the sport types will make the art flashy and popular, thus driving the students into the Dojo. This is where we have the opportunity to share True Kendo. Provided we keep the dojo door open. If not, the Mcdonald's brand of "Martial Arts and Kendo" will take them all. This is my humble two yen. In all, if sponsorship leads to the growth, and aids the survival of the art, I'm all for it. However, I will remain true to the old ways.

[Vortex]

They say the squeaky hinge gets the oil... If you wore that I think your just asking for people to line up and take a shot at you...

[ChaShu]

While I made light about sponsorship in a previous post, I do believe that at some point in any competitive physical activity, commercialization will be inevitable. That has been what has made martial arts so popular around the world. You see it in the McDojos popping up, you see it in the Gracie/UFC empire, the flashy martial arts competitions and demos around the world, heck, even the most "traditional" of arts, sumo, is commercialized to a certain degree. The difference is how we in the kendo world manage the change. Sumo, at least in Japan, has taken the bull by the horns, so to speak, and controlled almost every aspect of its destiny to the point of dictating certain parts of participants' behaviour outside the ring, while benefitting from its commercial appeal.

The flipside of this is the rampant and unchecked growth of martial arts schools, for example, in North America, where schools tend to emphasize the competition and the flashy. You have corporations sponsoring martial arts demo teams whose participants, although I don't doubt their practical prowess, tend to show a flashy, MTV style martial arts that would get your butt kicked on the street. I was asked the other day by someone in the changeroom who saw my equipment whether they would get to use a "real sword" if they joined, and when I said to them, someday, maybe years down the line, I would use the sword in single kata or test cutting, and I have many, many years of hard work learning the basics, you could see the enthusiasm just going out of their eyes because it didn't fit with their commercialized image of martial arts. The danger of unchecked commercialization is the promise, sometimes from sensei with questionable credentials, of quick results without the required mental or spiritual discipline needed to handle such dangerous skills.

That being said, I believe the kendo world should, if not actively seek commercial participation, at least recognize that it will happen at some point, and before it creates a schism amongst its ranks, put rules in place regarding sponsorship and commercialization. In this way, I believe that the modern world and the traditional arts can co-exist.

[ChaShu]

By the way... this debate reminds me of one maybe 10-15 years ago in Rugby Union when discussions about professional rugby union players emerged. While it was inevitable, some chose to ignore the debate while others tried to make sure that the change was not disruptive to the sport. While some clamoured for a more television friendly RU, others made sure to remind them that League still existed and that RU shouldn't be changed for commercial purposes only.

Also, check out a similar debate on Olympic participation in the "Black Ships Of Kendo" <<http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/web/korea/index.php>> article. It's pretty enlightening.

[Kendoboy]

I was asked the other day by someone in the changeroom who saw my equipment whether they would get to use a "real sword" if they joined, and when I said to them, someday, maybe years down the line, I would use the sword in single kata or test cutting, and I have many, many years of hard work learning the basics, you could see the enthusiasm just going out of their eyes because it didn't fit with their commercialized image of martial arts.

A couple weeks ago, I was at the go station, and had someone randomly say to me, "nice kendo stick", to which I responded, "are you getting into kendo?" I should have seen it coming, since they called it a "kendo stick", but they responded "no, I'm more interested in the ninja side of things, like the disapearing and morphing into animals and stuff"

They went on to tell me how they read old texts about ninjas and wanted to get a katana etc. I suppose this sort of person exists everywhere, but when reality hits them like a foul ball to a distracted fan, it is truely the determined who will stick with it, Just as grasshopper said.

I guess as long as kendoka keep up the tradition giving the flashy bogu people 'a bit more attention', things can't really go that far from the original form.

[Sepiraph]

Seems disrespectful to me, God help us, is nothing free of commercial contamination these days?

What a wretched world!

I'll never support such things, Japanese martial arts should be done as traditionally as possible. Either that or just create 'western' spin-offs and break the links once and for all.

"Welcome to 'Stick Whacking', based on Kendo, registered trademark of the Soul-less Corporation!"

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but we live in a capitalistic society. Commercialization is not a 'contamination' and I don't think commercialization causes the world to be 'wretched'. If you call corporation 'soul-less', then tell me what exactly has a soul? Do you not realize that almost all corporation began as a small business, which often resulted from the hard-work, dedication, and even dreams of one or a few entrepreneurs?

While I do respect the martial art traditions, I don't think it is necessary to use it as a launching pad for attacks on capitalism.

hat being said, I believe the kendo world should, if not actively seek commercial participation, at least recognize that it will happen at some point, and before it creates a schism amongst its ranks, put rules in place regarding sponsorship and commercialization. In this way, I believe that the modern world and the traditional arts can co-exist.

I think there is a very realistic view of the future facing the kendo world. While I deeply respect Kendo as a martial art and would practice it for its own beauty and benefit, ultimately we live in a capitalistic society. If Kendo becomes more popular or even 'mainstream' outside of Japan (especially in the US), it would be inevitable that the commercialization aspect would come along too.

The question then, if it ever comes up, would be how drastic those changes would be in the future.