The kata-6 switch

[jjcruiser]

Sorry for a newbie kata question, but something has been confusing me a little bit and I thought it was an interesting topic.

In the sixth kata, as far as I know (since I haven't done 8-10 yet), it seems to be the only one where the aggressor/teacher role switches mid kata. This confuses me more than the others such that I keep switching shidachi and uchidachi in my head and swapping the parts by accident in the middle. I think once I understand what's going on I can nip that in the bud. Are there some wise old Kendoka on here that have good theory and philosophy behind this?

(For those that don't know what I'm talking about because I did a poor job describing it, what I mean is that when shidachi comes in in gedan, it looks like he's uchidachi because he does not make the first "aggressive" move; that is, the roles seem to switch to me when uchi comes in to tsuki and shidachi backs up into jodan then again into chudan, then goes for small kote only to be blocked and hit by the uchi.)

Am I alone in being confused by this (certainly possible). What's the philosophy behind it? And why in all the other kata does the failed-aggressor role of shidachi stay the same?

[Abramo]

(For those that don't know what I'm talking about because I did a poor job describing it, what I mean is that when shidachi comes in in gedan, it looks like he's uchidachi because he does not make the first "aggressive" move; that is, the roles seem to switch to me when uchi comes in to tsuki and shidachi backs up into jodan then again into chudan, then goes for small kote only to be blocked and hit by the uchi.)

I think you switched it in this description too.

Shidachi goes to gedan, shidachi attacks tsuki and shidachi deflects kote with suriage(?) kote. Uchidachi goes backwards and into jodan, which is a defensive move with no immediate counter-attack (I'd wager shidachi has already won at this point but I could be wrong.)

I can't help you if there's a theory behind it. But I don't think there's any reversal of roles. I can see your confusion because in ropponme (6th kata) shidachi "initiates" the movement unlike all other kata. However, shidachi must always use seme to pressure and entice uchidachi.

Maybe it helps if you just think of it as shidachi making the first move, everything else remaining the same.

Here's a video: http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=6uVMEYAJs8s

[ShinKenshi]

I agree with Abramo, I think you got a couple things switched and he described it well. I don't think there's any switch at all. The shidachi does take gedan no kamae but raises their bokuto to attack the uchidachi with seme. The uchidachi tries to force the shidachi down but when he realizes the shidachi will not back down he goes into jodan. The shidachi steps forward to keep the pressure on the shidachi, forcing him to come down to chudan. The uchidachi sees a suki and attacks the kote while the shidachi does suriage kote. The shidachi follows through to jodan for zanshin. Watch the video he posted if you get confused (uchidachi is on the left).

What do you mean by "failed aggressor?" The uchidachi is the one who always "looses" in the kata and the shidachi "wins" so I have a hard time understanding why you describe the shidachi part this way. Also, I don't think the shidachi moves first in any of the kata. I was always taught that every initial action done in all of the kata is done by the uchidachi.

[Abramo]

Also, I don't think the shidachi moves first in any of the kata. I was always taught that every initial action done in all of the kata is done by the uchidachi.

Yes, that's what I was taught too, but in ropponme uchidachi doesn't change kamae, so they need to give some of "cue" then, I believe?

[ShinKenshi]

Yes, that's what I was taught too, but in ropponme uchidachi doesn't change kamae, so they need to give some of "cue" then, I believe?

I think that because the uchidachi stays in chudan that's the initial move because it's the pressure he's exerting to try to keep the shidachi in gedan. The shidachi sees this and responds by forcing the uchidachi into jodan by exerting strong seme while moving from gedan to chudan. At least that's my take on it.

[Toecutter]

The shidachi does take gedan no kamae but raises their bokuto to attack the uchidachi with seme. The uchidachi tries to force the shidachi down but when he realizes the shidachi will not back down he goes into jodan. The shidachi steps forward to keep the pressure on the shidachi, forcing him to come down to chudan. The uchidachi sees a suki and attacks the kote while the shidachi does suriage kote. The shidachi follows through to jodan for zanshin. Watch the video he posted if you get confused (uchidachi is on the left).

I think that description is good.

In the sixth kata, as far as I know (since I haven't done 8-10 yet), it seems to be the only one where the aggressor/teacher role switches mid kata. T

I don't understand what you mean about role reversal. In all kata Uchidashi is always the aggressor, and moves first. The 6th kata is the only kata in one through seven where the uchidachi doesn't strike first, but other than that I'm not sure I understand your meaning.

[Fonsz]

The gedan no kamae makes sense if you imagine that both hold a one meter long razorblade.
In gedan if you're below the blade of the shidachi at the proper distance you twist your, blade sharp side up, towards the hands/wrist. Uchidachi raises his hands to get out of the danger zone. It's not jodan but an evasion.
The explanation about strong seme and pressure is correct but doesn't make sense when holding a shinai. I guess you can wrangle uchidachi's fingers if you do the above with your bokken.

[tango]

I think this is probably something that needs to be addressed by a 6.dan+ around here...

In theory, I would say uchidachi has to do something to cause shidachi to go to gedan. What that precisely is, I'm not sure.
At lower levels (kata at shinsa), the reality is that uchidachi doesn't do anything but wait for shidachi to go to gedan.
The only thing I think I can recall being told is that uchidachi's mental seme forces shidachi to gedan..

At higher levels (5.dan+ at shinsa), I just don't know what's expected. I dunno if uchidachi is expected to do some very minor physical action, like, just barely lower kensen a 1/2 inch... or if uchidachi just has to make everybody feel the motionless, mental/spiritual pressure being applied to shidachi.

Although I don't feel qualified to answer this at all, but still feel like writing *something* that sounds neat (but which may very well be wrong), I want to say something like... at the beginning of #6, it's some application of sen-no-sen that causes shidachi to go to gedan, but later in the kata, the kote-suriage-kote is go-no-sen.

[hugo]

Tango,
I can't recall when we began doing this, but at the Charlotte dojo the uchidachi (t or d?) will actually extend his bokken forward at the beginning of the kata, as if to execute seme from across the nine-step distance. Then, the shidachi will lower his bokken to gedan in response.
I'm certainly not a 6-Dan or above, but doing the kata this way seems to give the gedan choice a reason. It's as though the shidachi responds to stronger-than-the-last-chudan-pressure and decides to change tactics.

I must apologize for how embarassing this reads. My ability to articulate my kata experiences is less than...

[Neil Gendzwill]

shidachi attacks tsuki

There's no tsuki in this kata. Shidachi continues the seme he began when raising his shinai and forces uchidachi back.

The gedan no kamae makes sense if you imagine that both hold a one meter long razorblade.
In gedan if you're below the blade of the shidachi at the proper distance you twist your, blade sharp side up, towards the hands/wrist. Uchidachi raises his hands to get out of the danger zone. It's not jodan but an evasion.
The explanation about strong seme and pressure is correct but doesn't make sense when holding a shinai. I guess you can wrangle uchidachi's fingers if you do the above with your bokken.

I've never heard that explanation before. My sensei tells me the attitude behind gedan is one of sutemi, "I've acknowledged I am going to die, so I'm taking you with me". It's very difficult to hit someone coming up from gedan without getting skewered. With shinai, the men is normally going to hit first but that would be nicely negated with shinken by the tsuki through the abdomen shortly thereafter. I'd say in this kata that uchidachi is simply less committed to killing his man.

In theory, I would say uchidachi has to do something to cause shidachi to go to gedan.

Why? Shidachi is the driver in all the kata. #6 is one of the few exceptions where he initiates the action from a kata mechanics point of view (#5 and kodachi #3 being the other two).

The thing you are taught at first is that uchidachi originates all actions, but that's just the mechanics of the kata, managing the performance if you will. Or you can look at it as the teaching aspect of that side of the kata. But when you look deeper at the reasons behind why uchidachi moves, it's due to shidachi. In #1 for example, uchidachi attacks first because of the seme that shidachi is exerting.

[hyuna]

I can't answer your specific question, but I think it is a good one.

The sort of general philosophical answer to your confusion, though, is that uchidachi actually is always responding to pressure from shidachi. In most of the kata, uchidachi may make the first large movement, however, it is always because of the influence of shidachi. Uchidachi always loses because shidachi always forces him, in some fashion, to attack. Since shidachi forced the action, shidachi is ready to exploit it. This is true of all the kata, so there is one sense in which shidachi is always the aggressor.

It the beginning, it's easy to get confused in the middle of the kata. In my own case, it's because of thinking too much. It's when I get distracted by thinking that I tend to screw up and lose track of what is going on. And it does still happen to me during practice on occasion, even after so many years. Usually when I have to teach someone kata and it looks like it is happening to them, I suggest to them to not think too hard about the meaning of the kata until after you can do the steps completely by rote. In my own case, once my body can just do things without having to remember the next step then it becomes much easier to try to figure things out, since it is one less thing to keep track of. In other words, in the beginning, I would suggest not worrying about who is aggressor and who is defender, and just focus on "when he does that, I do this." We only have 10 kata to learn for our entire kendo careers. For some people, that is 80 years or even more. There's plenty of time to worry about those kinds of details

[ShinKenshi]

The thing you are taught at first is that uchidachi originates all actions, but that's just the mechanics of the kata, managing the performance if you will. Or you can look at it as the teaching aspect of that side of the kata. But when you look deeper at the reasons behind why uchidachi moves, it's due to shidachi. In #1 for example, uchidachi attacks first because of the seme that shidachi is exerting.

Had never thought of it this way before. Now my mind is churning thinking about the kata differently. Is there any chance you could explain this more in reference to each of the kata? Or should this be something I try to figure out on my own first?

[tango]

Why? Shidachi is the driver in all the kata. #6 is one of the few exceptions where he initiates the action from a kata mechanics point of view (#5 and kodachi #3 being the other two).

Ah, this is a good point and you're right... I momentarily lost my mind on all things kata...

But ummm... I don't see how shidachi initiates action in #5 (as he does in #6 and kodachit #3)?

..I've never been shown to go to seigan before uchidachi goes to hidari-jodan, rather always, seigan is the response to hidari-jodan. (??)
But.. maybe that's some s00per-s3krit 5.dan-level stuff....?

[tango]

Had never thought of it this way before. Now my mind is churning thinking about the kata differently. Is there any chance you could explain this more in reference to each of the kata? Or should this be something I try to figure out on my own first?

Far be it from me to try and speak for Neil, but what what needs to be remembered is what Arthur just said a couple posts up.

Shidachi is always in control.
It is the pressure from shidachi which causes uchidachi to move first.
In most cases, it is an "invisible" pressure that causes uchidachi to change kamae.. In some cases (like #6 and kodachi #3) shidachi changes kamae first, but his pressure with this new kamae (in both cases, it's gedan) still causes uchidachi to take the first steps forward..

Note that whenever shidachi changes kamae at the beginning of any kata (which in my book is only #6 and kodachi #3, until Neil convinces me that #5 goes in that category), uchidachi always remains in chudan.

[tango]

Originally Posted by Neil Gendzwill
Why? Shidachi is the driver in all the kata. #6 is one of the few exceptions where he initiates the action from a kata mechanics point of view (#5 and kodachi #3 being the other two).

Ah, this is a good point and you're right... I momentarily lost my mind on all things kata...

But ummm... I don't see how shidachi initiates action in #5 (as he does in #6 and kodachi #3)?

..I've never been shown to go to seigan before uchidachi goes to hidari-jodan, rather always, seigan is the response to hidari-jodan. (??)
But.. maybe that's some s00per-s3krit 5.dan-level stuff....?

Sorry, I meant to say: "I don't see how shidachi physically changes his kamae in any way (similarly to #6 or kodachi #3) in order to cause uchidachi to adopt hidari-jodan."

Maybe that makes more sense.