Types of furikaburi for men uchi

[Roberto]

Just the one that you mentioned as number two. Many Japanese teachers recommend it, and I've seen how even the Japanese senseis that were training with the Japan team have make them corret their swing to perform the 2nd (which actually H.Sandslet mentioend to it as the 45 degrees). Actually that "migi joudan" position should be the same that your arms and forearms are while in chudan no kamae. Also that's teh one I rather do because seems more natural for myself. Sometimes some senseis suggest to swing all the way back the shinai, but that includes innecesary movement of the elbow joints, which are not used in that way whenthre is teh attack situation.

I'm saying it about what is the best for me, and for the senseis I've seen and trained with, which in mayority prefeers the 2nd drawing you put for the OP.

[DCPan]

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...?t=7440&page=3

[H.Sandsleth]

I think this is the same study: http://www.miamivalleykendo.org/suburi.html

[DCPan]

I think this is the same study: http://www.miamivalleykendo.org/suburi.html

Yup, if you see line 3 on that webpage....

[H.Sandsleth]

:-) it's too late in the evening for me...

[Roberto]

Nice article!
Especially how it explains why the suburi 3 makes the faster movement against suburi 4.
Then I suppouse that suburi 1 and 2 (according to the article) take longer for reach the point of impact, though I'll be pretty sure that those can give a stronger impact.
I wonder if this will have an impact later around kendou. Sometimes is really difficult to understand and accept the thinner line bewteen efectiveness and tradition, don't you think? I'm definetly saving this as references for my personal kendou studies!

[Roberto]

Nice article!
Especially how it explains why the suburi 3 makes the faster movement against suburi 4.
Then I suppouse that suburi 1 and 2 (according to the article) take longer for reach the point of impact, though I'll be pretty sure that those can give a stronger impact.
I wonder if this will have an impact later around kendou. Sometimes is really difficult to understand and accept the thinner line bewteen efectiveness and tradition, don't you think? I'm definetly saving this as references for my personal kendou studies!

[neko kenshi]

Wow, awesome thread, guys! I've definitely wondered about this in the past (even started a thread about it once). I'm surprised to hear so many people say that they use and teach multiple styles for different applications. I myself have just been using #2 for everything, and have been taught it as the kihon cut.

[Hisham]

Same as Neko kenshi, i was thought and still am with my new sensei to use #2 as a kihon cut altough i tend to do #3 which i'm trying to fix.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I myself have just been using #2 for everything, and have been taught it as the kihon cut.

The problem with teaching #2 is that it is quite difficult to get that 45 degree angle and get the hands overhead. Getting the hands overhead is the important bit. That's why many sensei will actually teach people to hit their butt with the shinai - it forces them to swing big and centred. I don't like it because it can also ingrain a bad habit of a straight left arm at the top and/or loosening the grip.

[neko kenshi]

For the angle I just try to keep my wrists and elbows in more or less the same relative positions as in chudan through the furikaburi, which seems to work all right, as far as I can tell, and the cut just feels way too small if my hands don't go over my head. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you mean by getting your hands over your head, but it seems pretty natural to raise my left hand to a fist or two away from my forehead at a 45 degree angle when I rotate my shoulders for furikaburi and keep my wrists and elbows like they were in chudan, if that makes any sense.

[Mihoshi]

I'm actually surprised at how many people in this thread are either advocating different furikaburi for different kinds of kendo or are saying their sensei do. Most of my sensei go out of their way to specifically beat into us the fact that we should be doing number two, or at least traveling along the orbit of number two (if we're doing a small technique), regardless of whether we're doing kihon, kata, or jigeiko.

[guchido]

Thank you all for your replies. From what I´ve been reading these is what I get:

1.They all need correct timing.
2.Some use all of them.
Furikaburi 1
1. People who shorten up the swing produce this type of swing.
2. It contains too many things that high ranking sensei picks on.
3. Opens for the kote strike (I believe this depends on timing).
4. Swing is made by wrist motion, not by arm motion.

Furikaburi 2
1. Sensei teaches like this.
2. It is used in Kata and Kihon and Shiai

Furikaburi 3

1. Sensei also teaches like this.
2. It is used in Kihon.
3. Looses shoulders.
4. Good for warm ups
5. Good for teaching a straight swing to beginners, better if you swing it all the way back.
6. Good for the use of arms and not wrists

After reading the article about suburi which was provided by Kingofmyrrh (translator), DCpan and H. Sandsleth, whom I specially thank, I get the conclusion that my #3 furikaburi is good for using my arms instead of my wrists and it has the higher speed between suburi. Also that the shinai to the buttocks produces less speed and should be done with the proper handling. It is useful for teaching children a straight line cut, though. One little problem of this study would be the size (n) of the sample and the statics method (not well described). The conclusion was:
"In conclusion, effective suburi would be something like the following:
First, with regards to the upswing, 'from kamae, raise both elbows as far as they will go'. The position of the kensen is not specified.
However, there is one important condition here, which is not to loosen the grip of the left hand. If you loosen it, you end up with a different movement."

The poll results until now give a winner: Furikaburi 2.

Finally, this is my personal conclusion:

1. The ideal is #2.
2. It is difficult to learn because it has a te no uchi component that it has to be mastered and the angle above is not at our sight.
3. # 3 is good to start learning #2, it involves more arm movement (which is what you need to learn first) and it is great for warm ups.
4. # 1 is a te no uchi strike although it is a little higher than the normal chisai technique. It is not an ideal form but it is not forbidden.

I guess then, that when I do suburi and kirikaeshi and uchikomi I will do # 3 to get used to that movement and when doing kata, kakarigeiko and jigeiko I will do #2, which will appear without effort since people tend to shorten their swing when they are fighting.

Again, thank you all.
J. Villarán

[Neil Gendzwill]

I guess then, that when I do suburi and kirikaeshi and uchikomi I will do # 3 to get used to that movement and when doing kata, kakarigeiko and jigeiko I will do #2, which will appear without effort since people tend to shorten their swing when they are fighting.

#2 is not a shorter swing than #3. The hands end up at the same place, but the angle of the sword is different. If you just shorten up the swing to get the 45 degree angle, you'll end up with your hands in front of your face, not over your head.

Controlling that tip position is hard. Consider kata #5 - the most common mistake people make as shidachi is to bring the shinai tip back beyond 45 degrees.

[Hank]

I think this is the same study: http://www.miamivalleykendo.org/suburi.html

Wow, that's an interesting article. If I get what they're saying, #3 from the OP seems to be the more natural and efficient suburi. Which is probably why most people at least start out doing it that way.

Regardless of that, I think this article may actually help me with a swing problem I've been having for a while. Very nice.