Pushing in kendo?

[Usagi San]

Now, THAT'S pushing.
Just 7 seconds after the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5sN...e=channel_page

[MAZ77]

Now, THAT'S pushing.
Just 7 seconds after the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5sN...e=channel_page

That looked like tai atari to me.

[D'Artagnan]

Yeah that's taiatari

[Trent]

That is a ridiculously strong taiatari. I have never seen anything like it. He pushed his opponent over and out of the ring. Wow

[Usagi San]

Taiatari?... ok, call it what you want, but it looks more like sumo to me

[Paburo]

i think this is legal taiatari though... its obvious the guy on the left didnt mean to push him out of bounds that violently and was also surprised and concerned by the lack of balance from the guy on the right.

incidentally looks like white was more interested in bobbing his head and dodging cuts than maintaining a proper, strong posture....

[Toecutter]

I guess that's the reason they stopped doing kendo on raised platforms.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Catch a guy off-guard, he's going to end up on his butt. Nothing wrong with a clean hard taiatari.

[Chaby]

Well, pushing, taiatari or just knocking down happens quite often:
Here is one vid.

You can see quite few of them in the second half of the video.
The kids are awesome too in the beginning of the same.
Just, don't mind the cheesy music.

There seems to be some gray area around it.
On one seminar a nanadan sensei told us that pushing out of the shia-jo is a hansoku unless there was an attempt of a strike right after it.
Taiatari should be always followed by a strike.
So says the book.
Watching quite some number of videos from A.J.K.C. and similar events, this is not the case.

[Neil Gendzwill]

On one seminar a nanadan sensei told us that pushing out of the shia-jo is a hansoku unless there was an attempt of a strike right after it.

Here's the criteria I got from 3 separate IKF-certified referees:

1. If someone goes out as a result of an attack followed up by taiatari, hansoku is given to the person who goes out.
2. If someone goes out as a result of a shove or taiatari independent of an attack, hansoku might be given to the attacker if the following criterion are met:
a) defender is aware of the danger and is actively defending
b) defender is in a position to defend
Case A means that if the defender easily goes back or appears to be not considering the boundary in his defence (ie isn't aware of where he is) then he gets the hansoku
Case B means that if the defender is already out of position due to a previous taiatari or some other action, the attacker can bounce him out and the defender is penalized. You often see where the attack/taiatari leaves the defender teetering on the edge, and then the attacker gives one more push to give the defender the penalty.

The reality is that the attacker is almost never penalized. The morale of the story is - know where you are! Losing by jogai sucks.

[jjcruiser]

This issue was debated in another interesting thread (which I'm too lazy to look up right now) fairly extensively. I'm too inexperienced to say what something is or isn't but I'd never seen anything like that first taiatari. In fact, the whole match looked much more physical and quickly-aggressive than more recent highlights of tournaments that I'm used to seeing. Was that more common back in the day?

[Edit: I started replying before I saw Neil's thorough description. I don't remember but that may have been the substance/result of the other thread's discussion.]

[MAZ77]

This issue was debated in another interesting thread (which I'm too lazy to look up right now) fairly extensively. I'm too inexperienced to say what something is or isn't but I'd never seen anything like that first taiatari. In fact, the whole match looked much more physical and quickly-aggressive than more recent highlights of tournaments that I'm used to seeing. Was that more common back in the day?

[Edit: I started replying before I saw Neil's thorough description. I don't remember but that may have been the substance/result of the other thread's discussion.]

I couldnt say or comment on if kendo was rougher back in the day, but tai atari was something that was practiced quite a bit. IF either of my two OLD SCHOOL sensei do tai atari to me, its just freaking strong, and whether i am defending or not, i go flying. And mind you, they are NOT pushing or sticking any extra effort other than the initial contact. I guess there is something to be said for doing it right. Lord knows i cannot even move a small child.

[Chaby]

Here's the criteria I got from 3 separate IKF-certified referees:

1. If someone goes out as a result of an attack followed up by taiatari, hansoku is given to the person who goes out.
2. If someone goes out as a result of a shove or taiatari independent of an attack, hansoku might be given to the attacker if the following criterion are met:
a) defender is aware of the danger and is actively defending
b) defender is in a position to defend
Case A means that if the defender easily goes back or appears to be not considering the boundary in his defence (ie isn't aware of where he is) then he gets the hansoku
Case B means that if the defender is already out of position due to a previous taiatari or some other action, the attacker can bounce him out and the defender is penalized. You often see where the attack/taiatari leaves the defender teetering on the edge, and then the attacker gives one more push to give the defender the penalty.

The reality is that the attacker is almost never penalized. The morale of the story is - know where you are! Losing by jogai sucks.

Thank you for the clarification.
In general, our sensei is against pushing the aite around in the shiai-jo.
So we don't do that.
Our sensei is saying to us that it's a waste of energy.
We should build up an ippon with technique not sheer force.
We train taiatari as shinsa requirements and basic waza.
Sensei is very strict about doing "beautiful kendo", and we are respecting the shinai as a sword, not a bamboo stick.


..and such, while holding a live blade in my hands, I'm wondering what fool would run to push me.


However, watching High school championships, you van see very often some brutal pushings and taiataris.

[NigelSponge]

i'm not saying its not taiatari in the video, but to me it looks as if, although he finishes the push with his arms, but it kinda looks like he lead in with his shoulder.
Personally i thought it was awesome lol, but just putting in my 2¢

[Neil Gendzwill]

In general, our sensei is against pushing the aite around in the shiai-jo.

As am I, and I have had some words with club members who have gotten too bull-ish in shiai. OTOH I see nothing wrong with using a good shot to open up your opponent - it's just one of the tools in your kit.

In any case you should be aware of the rules and how they are commonly interpreted because you may well be on the receiving end of someone who is determined to score points off jogai.