Lets talk books. Martial art classics.

[PatrickM]

My humble library consist of Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War, Bushido - The Soul Of Japan, Code of The Samurai, Hagakure, Zen Lessons, Tao Teh Ching, The sword of No sword - Life and writing of master Tesshu, The book of family tradition on the art of war by Yagyú Munenori.

If anybody have read some of these books I would love to discuss these books with you. How you think reading it can transfer to Kendo (or other Martial arts), what you thought of the book..
You know, many people think Go Rin No sho by Musashi is an average/slightly above average book at best. I strongly disagree. I just don't think people can fully understand the deepness of what he's writing. These are books you understand maybe 10 % the first time you read'em.. You have to read these books many times over IMO to fully grasp the meaning of these books.

Anyway.. I would love to hear your opinion on these books.

[Bruce Mitchell]

I have read these, but am not a big fan. The reason being is that some of these were not written for the general public, so it is unlikely that any conclusions or insights that are gained from these are what the author intended. And some of these were written with no firsthand experience (Hagakure) and reads more as a "book of manners" than something that relates to combative sport/martial arts. The Art of War , while a classic, should be only a part of a larger education in military classics, military theory has advanced significantly over the centuries.

Before tackling the classics, I would recommend first reading the following:
A History of Warfare by John Keegan
The Face of Battle by John Keegan
The Western Way of War by Victor David Hanson
Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond
Collapse by Jared Diamond
War Before Civilization by Lawrence Keeley
Acts of War by Richard Holmes
The Biology of Peace and War by Irenaus Eibl-Eibesfeldt
On Killing by David Grossman
On Combat by David Grossman
Deadly Force Encounters by Artwohl & Christensen
Sharpening the Warriors Edge by Bruce Siddle
The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker
Deep Survival by Laurence Gonzales
Bone Games by Rob Schultheis
Why People Believe Weird Things by Micheal Shermer
Budo Perspectives Ed. by Alex Bennet
Old School by Ellis Amdur
The Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday
Hired Swords by Karl Friday
Samurai Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan by Karl Friday
The First Samurai by Karl Friday
Lone Samurai by William Scott Wilson
The Last Samurai by Mark Ravina
Samurai Sketches by Romulus Hillsborough
Ryoma by Romulus Hillsborough

[PatrickM]

I have read these, but am not a big fan. The reason being is that some of these were not written for the general public, so it is unlikely that any conclusions or insights that are gained from these are what the author intended. And some of these were written with no firsthand experience (Hagakure) and reads more as a "book of manners" than something that relates to combative sport/martial arts. The Art of War , while a classic, should be only a part of a larger education in military classics, military theory has advanced significantly over the centuries.

Before tackling the classics, I would recommend first reading the following:
A History of Warfare by John Keegan
The Face of Battle by John Keegan
The Western Way of War by Victor David Hanson
Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond
Collapse by Jared Diamond
War Before Civilization by Lawrence Keeley
Acts of War by Richard Holmes
The Biology of Peace and War by Irenaus Eibl-Eibesfeldt
On Killing by David Grossman
On Combat by David Grossman
Deadly Force Encounters by Artwohl & Christensen
Sharpening the Warriors Edge by Bruce Siddle
The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker
Deep Survival by Laurence Gonzales
Bone Games by Rob Schultheis
Why People Believe Weird Things by Micheal Shermer
Budo Perspectives Ed. by Alex Bennet
Old School by Ellis Amdur
The Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday
Hired Swords by Karl Friday
Samurai Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan by Karl Friday
The First Samurai by Karl Friday
Lone Samurai by William Scott Wilson
The Last Samurai by Mark Ravina
Samurai Sketches by Romulus Hillsborough
Ryoma by Romulus Hillsborough

Interesting bookcollection you posted, might just check it out. Regarding Hagakure and other books not being written with first hand experience. This is true but throwing it away because of that would be a shame. The moral lessons throughout the book IMO is just as significant either way. You can always be ''too'' critical about a book, saying Go Rin No Sho is way to biased because is was written by one with first hand experience and because he could choose which facts to include and which facts not to include. To me getting an understanding of how martial art master thought and acted 500 years ago is a clue to understand the martial way in present day.

about 'coming to an conclusion' when reading these books.. I don't think you're meant to conclude much.. It's a guideline and you can only fully understand these things by experience it for yourself, crossing swords with and opponent etc. But that doesn't change that fact that it's really interesting reading regardless.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Interesting bookcollection you posted, might just check it out. Regarding Hagakure and other books not being written with first hand experience. This is true but throwing it away because of that would be a shame. The moral lessons throughout the book IMO is just as significant either way.

Fair point but for the record I was not advocating "throwing it away", rather, first gaining an accurate understanding of the era in which it was written and how that related to earlier eras in warrior/samurai history, as well as gaining some perspective on the author, who had his own agenda before accepting any of what Yamamoto Tsunetomo has to say, since he is fairly extreme in his views.

You can always be ''too'' critical about a book, saying Go Rin No Sho is way to biased because is was written by one with first hand experience and because he could choose which facts to include and which facts not to include. To me getting an understanding of how martial art master thought and acted 500 years ago is a clue to understand the martial way in present day.

Again, I agree, but the reader with a better working knowledge of the historical realities of the period when this was written will be better equipped to understand the writings of a long dead swordsman. That, and the fact that there are a lot of versions of this book out there and they are not all equal. If we are going to discuss the Go Rin No Sho we have to first know if we are working from a translation, and if so, which translation.

about 'coming to an conclusion' when reading these books.. I don't think you're meant to conclude much.. It's a guideline and you can only fully understand these things by experience it for yourself, crossing swords with and opponent etc. But that doesn't change that fact that it's really interesting reading regardless.

I don't disagree, but you did say,

"You know, many people think Go Rin No sho by Musashi is an average/slightly above average book at best. I strongly disagree. I just don't think people can fully understand the deepness of what he's writing. These are books you understand maybe 10 % the first time you read'em.. You have to read these books many times over IMO to fully grasp the meaning of these books."

As I posited in my first post, this book is often claimed to be understood by folks who read it, but unless you are following the advice of Imai Sohke as put forth in Explanations of Dokkodo of Musashi Miyamoto (The Way of Self Reliance) and Seiho of the Niten Ichiryu, then you are probably just inventing your own, personalized understanding of what Musashi wrote, and not understanding it as the author intended at all, "For years it has to be said that if one wants to understand Gorin no Sho, one must also understand the Buddhist Sutras.Without this, it is impossible to understand the real meaning of Gorin no Sho and the mind of Musashi. Both Gorin no Sho and the Buddhist Sutras are indispensable to Hyoho Budo.~Imai Sohke"

If you want to read more on this then go here:http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho1.html

There is also cautionary advice given here by Colin Watkin on applying these teachings to Kendo:
http://www.hyoho.com/hyoho7.html

I am not trying to take away from your experience, but merely trying to point out that reading these books out of context is a highly subjective experience and, I think, makes it difficult to transfer this into one's practice in a meaningful way. That said, I do think that they should be read by anyone with a serious interest in these things, but maybe should not be read before reading some histoical/biographical books about Japan and the Samurai. Again I would recommend these:
Budo Perspectives Ed. by Alex Bennet
Old School by Ellis Amdur
The Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday
Hired Swords by Karl Friday
Samurai Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan by Karl Friday
The First Samurai by Karl Friday
Lone Samurai by William Scott Wilson
Miyamoto Musashi by Kenji Tokitsu
The Last Samurai by Mark Ravina
Samurai Sketches by Romulus Hillsborough
Ryoma by Romulus Hillsborough
Warriors of Japan as Potrayed in the War Tales by Paul Varley
Heavenly Warriors by William Wayne Farris
Legends of the Samurai by Hiroaki Sato
Classical Warrior Traditions Volumes 1-3 of Japan ed. by Diane Skoss

You can also find some good book recommendations in this article by Meik Skoss:http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss5.html

[Bucho]

Since we are talking about different versions of the Gorin no sho, don't get this one: http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Artist.../dp/0804830207

[SanguineKendoka]

I'm not sure how relevant the Japanese classics you mentioned are to a modern audience, as they're hundreds of years and (in European and American cases) thousands of miles out of context from the small caste they were written for in a unique and xenophobically insular society.

I don't think of them as being much use in application to modern Kendo or life. Though they can be fascinating as a historical study I doubt its possible to glean even half the knowledge thats available without a proper education in period history, philosophy and literary conventions no matter how many times you read them. .

note: "depth", not "deepness". Lets keep the bookclub highbrow.

Edit: Damn. On second thoughts, just read what Bruce said
Originality is difficult.