Muso Shinden Ryu Kumitachi Forms

[J. Pombo]

Good evening,

I felt curious about the kenjutsu curriculum in MSR so I journeyed through the internet to find out more, since until very recently I only knew about the Tachi Uchi No Kurai group of forms, and their respective names. I found out that there are another 6 groups of forms in addition to TUNK, but so far I've only managed to find out the names of the groups (Kurai Tori; Tsumeai No Kurai; Daisho Tsume; Daisho Tachi Tsume; Tsume No Kurai; Daikendori) and the names of the Tsumeai No Kurai forms. Hence I ask, is there anyone out there who may have further knowledge on Kumitachi, or know any reliable sources on this? Also, kindly tell me if the names I stated here are correct/acceptable or not, since some of them I learned from shady websites. The rest I learned from Wikipedia, and I've read in these forums that Wiki may have incorrect data aswell.

Best regards,
JPombo

[ScottUK]

Never heard of Tsume no Kurai?

Tsumiai no kurai:

Hasso
Ken tori
Nami gaeshi
Yae gaki
Uroko gaka
Kurai yurumi
Tsubame gaeshi
Tsuka kudaki
Suigetsu
Kazumi ken

I believe this is right (names from some notes I made of the MSR versions some time ago).

[J. Pombo]

Lol... those were the names I got for the Tsumeai No Kurai forms in one of the shady websites. I don't know, are they the same as Tsume No Kurai or was my info just wrong?

Thank you

[Kent Enfield]

If you can read Japanese, get a hold of a copy of Danzaki sensei's book, Iaido: Sono Riai to Shinzui.

[ScottUK]

Re-read my post. You asked for the MSR tsumiai names.

I have never heard of Tsume no Kurai.

[Oroshi]

Edit: My mistake - misread Scott's post.

[ScottUK]

Edit: My mistake - misread Scott's post.

Yeah seems like the MSR names vary from the MJER stuff. Not that I am an expert - my Tsumiai/Tsumeai(?) no Kurai is pretty rough. Need more keiko!

[J. Pombo]

Yeah seems like the MSR names vary from the MJER stuff. Not that I am an expert - my Tsumiai/Tsumeai(?) no Kurai is pretty rough. Need more keiko!

Hehe... well my (shady) sources state those two names as separate sets of forms: there is Tsumeai No Kurai and there is Tsume No Kurai. According to Wiki, Tsumeai No Kurai involves kenjutsu between standing opponents, and Tsume No Kurai involves kenjutsu AND/OR jujutsu between standing AND/OR sitting opponents. In all the sites I explored, the set of kata you provided in this thread is referred as Tsumeai No Kurai.
Thank you all very much for your suggestions and opinions.

[ScottUK]

Wikipedia is a great staring point, but not always correct.

Best to wait for opinons on here - or ask at E-Budo.

[Fukuryu]

Keeping with what Scott suggested, in this thread in e-Budo, while not strictly related with the question posted here, some of the kumitachi sets are mentioned together with the context on when and how were taught. One of them is Zume no kurai as kumitachi kaewaza.

[chidokan]

As MSR is based on MJER, there is no reason for them not to be present in the 'list of waza' you learn. Note it is recommended that these are taught to 5th dan MJER and above by Iwata sensei (ZNKR), and Oe sensei's 7 tachi uchi no kata for lower MJER grades...it is likely a similar 'rule of thumb' would apply for MSR if their senior sensei have a similar opinion to him.
If you haven't been introduced to them, your sensei will have a good reason for not showing you.
To be honest I have conflicting views on this...

I think it a good idea for people to be aware of what they are, and know the shape. This is because the more difficult senior MJER stuff has been lost due to it not being taught, however is it worth saving the shape alone???

It is also good to have something to look forward to learning at a later date, and learn the waza you do know to a high level before trying something new...it makes the new techniques easier to learn with good basics...

[still learning]

...... my Tsumiai/Tsumeai(?) no Kurai is pretty rough. Need more keiko!

Come to Darlington [UK] in October......... Tachi Uchi & Tsumiai........

Oh! Wait!
You have already committed to the event........

Others will be welcomed.

[Wraith]

Has anyone practiced Daishō Zume, Daishō Tachi Zume and Daikendori ? I'm intrested in getting a little information in this area

[Peter West]

Has anyone practiced Daishō Zume, Daishō Tachi Zume and Daikendori ? I'm intrested in getting a little information in this area

I spoke to Haruna Sensei back in 1998/9 about this in the MJER school. He was of the opinion that no-one has kept these alive. He said he thought that some people had tried to reconstruct them, but that their existence by direct transmission was lost.

It was his opinion, based on a lot of knowledge, to be sure. He believed that in the ZNIR even Tachi uchi and Tsumiai are not practiced, even by the then headmaster Fukui soke. He mentioned Iwata Sensei still working with TUNK and TNK. Mitani Sensei's book (which at that time I'd not seen, but now have a copy) shows only TUNK and TNK. Whether this is all correct I don't know. I don't know of anyone who knows them and teaches them openly.

[Oroshi]

I spoke to Haruna Sensei back in 1998/9 about this in the MJER school. He was of the opinion that no-one has kept these alive. He said he thought that some people had tried to reconstruct them, but that their existence by direct transmission was lost.

It was his opinion, based on a lot of knowledge, to be sure. He believed that in the ZNIR even Tachi uchi and Tsumiai are not practiced, even by the then headmaster Fukui soke. He mentioned Iwata Sensei still working with TUNK and TNK. Mitani Sensei's book (which at that time I'd not seen, but now have a copy) shows only TUNK and TNK. Whether this is all correct I don't know. I don't know of anyone who knows them and teaches them openly.

There are definitely Eishin-ryu groups practising sets of kata called "Daishozume," "Daishotachizume" and "Daikendori" in Japan today. However I can't say whether these kata have been directly transmitted or whether they are reconstructions from densho.

I know (from my reading) that Mitani sensei practised and even publically displayed Daishozume, Daishotachizume and Daikendori. However like I said I don't know whether these were directly transmitted or recreated by students of Oe sensei (as Mitani sensei learned from Oe, and later Oe's senior students, I presume the kata came from one of the two). I believe Mitani sensei passed these kata onto his students. I have also heard of other branches of Eishin ryu practising these sets. I understand that these kata have a strong focus on grappling, but I must stress this is just hearsay.

I should point out that I personally haven't practised more than tachi uchi no kurai and a tiny amount of tsume ai no kurai, so I really don't know much about the kata.