Muso Shinden Ryu Kumitachi Forms

[chidokan]

I have seen all the waza practised and taken part in the first two sets on a previous trip in Kochi. They are 'alive and kicking', but as I said limited to a few of the senior students I met. Bearing in mind they practise these with shinken, I can see their point in not teaching beginners these waza....

Bill has seen what Neil and I do, and can pass comments on what he does compared to us. His appears more 'gentlemanly'/ careful, and perhaps closer to Oe sensei's seven 'beginner' set as a general observation.... All ours are done from a deep iaigoshi (ie one head height drop from the start) rather than say a high 'kendo' stance, as one observation. (although maybe that's just Bill's kendo influence peeking through!)

Personally I think it more important to see how these can be taken and used back into earlier waza. There are some interesting points from tsume ai no kurai that reflect directly back to mae, for instance...however it all depends on how you practise iai in general and how you examine all the waza from a broader viewpoint. Some in depth knowledge is necessary before you can do this, so again, something to avoid as a beginner. One should remember the quest to collect waza is secondary to being good at the basics.

[Gishin]

I spoke to Haruna Sensei back in 1998/9 about this in the MJER school. He was of the opinion that no-one has kept these alive. He said he thought that some people had tried to reconstruct them, but that their existence by direct transmission was lost.

It was his opinion, based on a lot of knowledge, to be sure. He believed that in the ZNIR even Tachi uchi and Tsumiai are not practiced, even by the then headmaster Fukui soke. He mentioned Iwata Sensei still working with TUNK and TNK. Mitani Sensei's book (which at that time I'd not seen, but now have a copy) shows only TUNK and TNK. Whether this is all correct I don't know. I don't know of anyone who knows them and teaches them openly.

I suspect Haruna sensei was talking about Masoka Kazumi. He published a book back in the days that had all the old waza including punches, knee to the opponent etc etc. Did he reconstruct those waza or did he learn them from Oe sensei I have no idea but this is in the book the he wrote quite hard to get but the most complete one I saw.

[Andrei Arefiev]

I suspect Haruna sensei was talking about Masoka Kazumi. He published a book back in the days that had all the old waza including punches, knee to the opponent etc etc. Did he reconstruct those waza or did he learn them from Oe sensei I have no idea but this is in the book the he wrote quite hard to get but the most complete one I saw.

A (not such a long) while ago "Kendo Nippon" published a series of 6 articles about iaido kumitachi. I've given them to a translator who has translated the first 1.5 or 2.5 of them into Russian. I'll check them to be more sure, but the first part, as I recall it, quote Masaoka-sensei's book and cites the fact that he reconstructed most of the paired kata. Another part of the series speaks about Mitani-sensei (son of Mitani-sensei) teaching some of these kata (don't know which) to his students.

[still learning]

Bill has seen what Neil and I do, and can pass comments on what he does compared to us. His appears more 'gentlemanly'/ careful, and perhaps closer to Oe sensei's seven 'beginner' set as a general observation.... All ours are done from a deep iaigoshi (ie one head height drop from the start) rather than say a high 'kendo' stance, as one observation. (although maybe that's just Bill's kendo influence peeking through!)

I agree with the 'gentlemanly-ness' of what we do in comparison to Tim & Neil's practices.
Theirs are much more aggressive/strong and are more 'kurai-ish' than 'kata-ish'...?? As I understand it - Oe sensei took much of the strength/aggression out of the set in consideration of Health and Safety [of the learners].

As for 'uprightness'; it may well be my Kendo Kata/Bokuto Kihon having an influence...... but, as I recall, I am re-creating that which was taught.
We will find out soon as I will be practising with my original instructor ....
Also; will be learning, broadly, Tsumiai no Kurai for the first time....

[ScottUK]

Also; will be learning, broadly, Tsumiai no Kurai for the first time....

You better look forward to being introduced to the dojo floor...

[still learning]

Scott;
Hopefully 'they' will select a younger, fitter and more flexible [expendable?] ''dummy''........

[chidokan]

Bill,
If you cast your mind back, I have already shown you one of the kodachi set. The tsumeai set is quite interesting, especially the way the throw can be applied and followed up. Enjoy....