No-mind

**emitbrownne** · 14th January 2004, 05:11 PM

Hi,
this is way beyond me, but I was wondering if anyone with any experience could help.
I was considering the concept of no-mind when fencing.
From what I understand it is an ordinary mind where your body mind spirit all work as one. But I cannot get past the fact in my mind that this is reactionary. (reacting to an attack, or posture, or opening) .

assuming the above: how would one initiate an attack... or create an opening?

I realise that this is probably too deep a concept for me at this time, but if I start thinking about it now... maybe in a about 60 years time I will understand.

thanks in advance

Paulo

**Shiro** · 14th January 2004, 05:47 PM

I read somewhere you could compare the state of no-mind to a quiet pond.
If you look at the pond it reflects your image. When you hit water it reacts immediately.
Your mind has to reflect what is happening in front of you and nothing else should matter. If you see an opening, react to it. Don't bother about details of how you will hit him, it should be instinctive. Every little event during a shiai is like something that disturbs the surface of the pond.

**KhawMengLee** · 14th January 2004, 06:02 PM

heh...a documentary I saw ages ago likened this concept to people who type with both hands and those that hunt and pick. Most people who can type with the former translate words in their head to the screen without effort...this is no mind.

**emitbrownne** · 14th January 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Shiro

Your mind has to reflect what is happening in front of you and nothing else should matter. If you see an opening, react to it. Don't bother about details of how you will hit him, it should be instinctive. Every little event during a shiai is like something that disturbs the surface of the pond.

Ok.. but still the question... how do you initiate or open an attack when you are reacting??

**GMason** · 14th January 2004, 07:41 PM

I have only ever experienced what I would say was Mushin once...... I cut a Kote in a Taikai.... maybe three years ago. I came off the shiajo afterwards, and couldn't remember cutting the kote at all. It just happened I just reacted with out thinking. It wasn't the greatest fastest Kote or anything like that. In fact it was probably pretty crap, But it scored and I didn't have think about it.

It will hopefully happen again but I doubt it... I will just have to wait and see.....

**GMason** · 14th January 2004, 07:53 PM

Sounds a bit of a twatish answer, but the only answer I would give is Kihon....... & Keiko.

I think it is the only way you will ever get to a state where you will be able to achieve Mushin.

Personally I can't understand how you could get to a state of Mushin and create an opening. As in my simple world of Kendo I still have to seme...pressure....men. Which is all very diliberate.

Mushin for me at the moment could only be debana waza. As that is probably the only time I would react with out thinking. But this is probably due to my lack of understanding of mushin at the moment I think.

**Shiro** · 14th January 2004, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by emitbrownne

Ok.. but still the question... how do you initiate or open an attack when you are reacting??

That's a question of feeling. Your opponent moves, breaths, looks for the centre with the tip of his shinai, .... he won't be focused a 100% all the time. You have to feel when he is at a low point.

**LNGUYEN** · 14th January 2004, 09:34 PM

It is like taking the opportunity without thinking about it. The more you think, the slower you are and there will be doubted in your mind. You react when you see an opportunity to attack without thinking about it too much and there shouldn't be anything else in your mind that can be distracting (people surround, nervous, doubt, your opponent immage, etc). Like a Zen master, he keeps his mind as calm as possible to think more about the meaning of lives

and nothing else, like girl next door he should think about

**hyuna** · 15th January 2004, 02:22 AM

You answered your own question when you said "reacting to an opening." You initiate an attack when there is an opening. You move to create an opening when there is an opening.

Ok, the second thing is a little confusing so I will try to explain. When you do something to "create an opening" what are you trying to do? Maybe you mean that the opponent's sword is in the way. Making an opening might be performing harai-waza to clear the center. But if the opponent expects you to do this, when break your kamae to do your harai, your opponent will hit you. So you cannot perform this action unless your opponent is unprepared. In other words, you cannot create a physical opening without there first being a mental opening. That is one example, anyway.

"No mind" is separate from that mechanical stuff. "No mind" is doing all that mechanical stuff naturally, without conciously thinking about each step. It is not the thing you are doing ("reacting"); it is the manner in which you are doing it.

That is the way I think of it, anyway.

**Khabbi** · 15th January 2004, 02:58 AM

Isent "No mind" just another word for "being in the zone" ? . where u react without thinking . Kind of like the situation comes up and theres no time to think , u just act ? . I havent been in bogu yet so i cant talk about this feeling in kendo , but ive had it in sports and its a great feeling ,everything ells just dissaperes and its just that moment thats in focus and u react without thinking about it .

I might be way of , it wouldent be the firts time =)

Khabbi

**Musha** · 15th January 2004, 03:47 AM

Hi Emit,

Hope this does not sound strange, but I used to play a WW2 flying game with Japanese zeros v American aircraft on the Internet nearly every day for about a year or so. I set up games with the best people in the best people I could find 1 v 1 and have a kill limit. Strangely it was really like kendo. Stalls were when your kamae brakes and if you do that you would crash or get shot down immediately, this could happen when you got scared.

I don't think I got to Fudoshin level but I hardly ever thought about what I was doing, I could play at any time of the day past midnight and fly without thinking at all. And don't think it was like an old saga game like sonic, playing 5 hours strait was really frustrating and hard work

.

But coming back to the point, I played that game for 5 hours a day nearly every day for a long time so I had experience.
Just have fun try hard I’m sure it will come even if it takes 20 years

. Musashi said some thing in the line of "Do not examine the martial arts to hard". Don't think to much

. , I know Mark sensei has said that to me more than a few times too.

**samurai999** · 15th January 2004, 05:59 AM

I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think you are talking about "mushin". In English slang, it means that you are "in the zone". If somebody is rolling off 3 or 4 quarterback sacks in a row in American Football and the only comment he had was "i really don't know what happened. Everything just sorta came to me". That sorta shows to me that this player was in the zone.

There was a kendo mag a while back where Chris Yang was being interviewed after the Worlds in Santa Clara. He also mentioned that everything in his mind "went white" and doesn't really recall specifically the matches against the Korean and Japanese players that he beat. That sounds like what you defined to me. He was in the zone at that time. No worries, everything was working for him with his kendo at his best. (which means he'll probably beat me to a bloody, pulp)

Tim

eli1021 · 15th January 2004, 06:34 AM

If someone suggested that you need 'no-mind', you are probably either tensing up or hesitating. No-mind is a pretty difficult concept, more than just being "in the zone"; Zen monks can't explain it, neither can western philosophers, so it's rather presumptuous to assume anyone could do so here. (Unless a member is a monk and I just don't know about it. Beuler?) I can't even begin to explain it but here's a practical suggestion: do you do Zazen before and after practice? If so, try to maintain that "open" state of mind during practice. If not, do Zazen.