Shinkendo

[Tony Ferguson]

Hello,

My name is Tony Ferguson and I've been a student of Shinkendo for only a short time, about five years.

I wanted to ask the people here, anyone willing to discuss, why there is such apparent "bad blood" between Kendoka and Shinkendoka.

I think it's worth mentioning that I did not intentionally seek out these forums looking for an argument or someone to bounce opposing views off of, I'm here because searches for recent information regarding Shinkendo lead me to these forums again and again. I don't like what I'm reading here and I think a lot of it is product of misunderstanding and emotional snap judgments. I apologize if anyone feels like I am "invading their home" or poking my nose where it doesn't belong, but I view the ISF and everyone in it as a large family and I find it very hard to stand idly by considering the frequency of the perceived slandering.

I cannot stress enough that I do not intend to be the voice of our federation, I do not speak for Obata Kaiso and I am not interested in starting or carrying out needless arguments. My sincere wish is to repair or attempt to inform the opinions surrounding our art. I get the feeling that when the average user here sees the term "Shinkendo" on their screen, severe rectal clenching occurs and feelings of ire are stirred immediately. A certain few have been very expressive in their distaste for our art, the only thing I cannot ascertain clearly is why.

I see statements, made by Obata Kaiso, posted here over and over that many seem to be taking as slights against the legitimacy of Kendo as an art.

I do not believe a single remark was intended to take away validity from the art. My personal understanding is, in more or less words, what was meant to be conveyed is that Kendo is for Kendo and Shinkendo is for Shinkendo. I've read a couple of anecdotes of Kaiso's that are used here as an example of his supposed contempt for Kendo. Each anecdote included a Kendoka attempting something that is not within the realm of the art of Kendo, specifically attempting to cut large targets that would not be recommended for one with no prior cutting experience. Is it incorrect that Kendo does not teach or endorse tameshigiri? You can't really find fault in someone stating that you cannot cut bread with a spoon, at least not well.

One other matter I think is worth taking a look at is how vocal us Shinkendoka seem to be and how often we go out of our way to publicize our art. I see this used as an example against the federation frequently. I think it's important to understand that Shinkendo, in terms of martial arts, is brand new. Please understand that, if you don't tell anyone about something new, it stands to reason that no one will ever hear about it and it will never have a chance to grow. If I'm not mistaken, a popular advertising method of some of the older sword arts that so many revere, including myself, involved public death matches between kenshi. At least we're non lethal about it

Anyway, the only certain fact I think anyone meant to convey in this matter is that Kendo does not work within the realm of Shinkendo and Shinkendo certainly does not work within the realm of Kendo. They are different and have developed into how they exist today in completely different manners. However, it is important to note that each art contains qualities that a person can take away and apply to either art. Sword is sword is sword, after all.

I am not very concerned with "converting" anyone from their current opinions on the matter as we are all entitled to our views, I simply wish to obtain a better understanding of what people think by going straight to the issue; if one could even call this an issue.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and I hope I have presented my concerns in an objective and agreeable manner. I hope whatever discussion this topic may generate can be regarded as civil and productive.

Regards,
Tony Ferguson

[stealth_monkey]

I'll attempt to put it as objectively as possible.

The terms shinkendo and iai-jutsu are often used in modern day martial arts in an attempt to cover up a newly invented style, as it allows the teacher to dodge critisisms of "it's not real kendo/iaido". The primary argument against these styles of schools is that the koryu were designed by people who's profession was to kill people with swords and other weapons. The koryu attempt to pass down these techniques as accurately as possible. When someone attempts to completely redesign these lessons, it is more than valid to question what right such a person has to advertise their new art as equal to the other. I don't personally know much about Toshishiro Obata, but from my understanding, shinkendo is advertised as a realistic combative training method.

The question here is that is it even possible in modern day society for a person who has never been involved in sword combat to invent a realistic combative method? I believe the answer to this is no. I view the development of shinkendo the same way I would view a school of boxing invented by a blind man with no arms, with intense suspicion of its efficacy. Someone who has no experience and no first hand understanding of a thing can not, in my mind, propose to teach or change that thing.

[The great I AM]

Yo dude,

Hello and all that. As you're not Ricky I'll try to be nice. Please bear in mind that I don't use smileys, so try to think of me grinning while I write this, and read it with a pinch of salt (I can think of a couple of people who fail admirably at this, and let teh interwebz drag them down to my level!). If you can find people on here who know me personally they will also tell you I write the way I speak, so you're getting the whole me!

My issue is that the things that Obata comes out with always seem to be about applying his own (in my view) very limited train of thought on JSA to what other people are doing, and then belittling them, or inevitably kendo, when they don't fit his view or match his own ideas. Dam man, even the NAME he gave it Shinkendo (true sword way?) is an affront, suggesting what WE are doing is wrong in some way, and that we need educating, hence the stories about the kendo people who "go to him for instruction". This is one thing that frankly bugs the hell out of me.

Furthermore, the Shinkendo website contains a lot of things I find more than a little bizarre, like claiming to be the world HQ for Toyama ryu (I can read decent enough Japanese and did a hefty search earlier trying to find reference to this IN JAPANESE and could not find anything mentioning the states as the home of Toyama ryu, or Obata himself), though the biggest one for me is how originally being in Japan, he decided to create Shinkendo, and immediately moved to the US to do so.....? And there is STILL no Shinkendo in Japan, look on the Shinkendo website, Dojos in Asia. No Japan entry. I thought one of his motivating factors was to spread Shinkendo in Japan, where they've been getting it wrong for so long? He has succeeded in spreading it to all corners of the world EXCEPT Japan according to the Dojo List.....

And on your point of Shinkendo being a new art and needing to self publicise, dude, it's been going, what, nearly 20 years....? And has dojo's all over the world....? What still needs advertising so aggresively exactly? Obata's next book maybe? Perhaps you can see why he is viewed with some cynicism.

Perhaps that helps, at least with my own little view. Note also that I don't go out of my way to write this guff until people bring it up. If it was left to die I'd leave it to die, but while people bring it here I'll continue flogging it.

Gibbo

[Tony Ferguson]

Stealth_Monkey, I think I understand what you're saying but I may require a bit more clarification. What it sounds like is you're asserting that Shinkendo was just created "out of thin air". I don't presume to know the entire background, but I know Kaiso spent many years studying the sword among other arts (7 years live in student at the Yoshinkan Honbu etc.).

As far as sword, I read a lot about a Battodo Federation, but I'm not sure of what it is comprised. I do know, however, that he trained directly under Nakamura Taizoburo sensei who had established the Nakamura branch of Toyama Ryu. As I understand it, Nakamura sensei himself had some controversial opinions of Iai and was very steadfast in his beliefs. I think it's important to note Kaiso's connection with Nakamura sensei because Toyama Ryu, which he helped developed, was the most recent sword style to see live combat and the techniques reflect this. (While I'm on the subject of Toyama Ryu, The great I AM, the whole "head of Toyama Ryu" is a sort of confusing subject. I could be totally wrong, but Kaiso was acknowledged as head of the Nakamura branch here in the US. If I'm not mistaken, Toyama Ryu split into at least three different factions after the war( and probably more since then)- Nakamura sensei's art is what Kaiso studied and advanced in if memory serves).

You make a good point, stealth_monkey, in the reasoning of someone without battlefield experience "creating" a sword art (I believe it's important to make the distinction between art and style in this case). Although I'm certain he has not employed sword techniques in an actual war, Kaiso is certainly not without experience in extant sword arts. According to what I remember from a short segment of an interview he had while in Hungary and from reading through the books and other materials, Shinkendo was created based on his experiences in Nakamura Ryu, Kendo and various forms of Iai, the names of which escape me. He took what he felt were the best aspects from what he knew and crafted them together into a comprehensive art. Comprehensive meaning it contains what he believes are the most important aspects of swordsmanship as a whole (Correct swinging, Batto, Sparring, Tameshigiri and kata practice).

I believe it was the tendency for extant sword arts to place more focus some of these aspects over others that drove the creation of Shinkendo. Some Iai arts abhor cutting, some don't, some have sparring, some don't etc. Shinkendo strives for a balance in these five areas as we believe not one ring as we call it is mutually exclusive- Without good suburi your tameshigiri suffers, without tachiouchi you may not have a chance to develop good control/timing and your kata may suffer and so on. The five aspects interlock and compliment each other in this way.

I would say another driving factor behind Shinkendo's existence is safety. I've read one or two accounts of his that describe near reckless acts performed by people that are supposed to be adepts in the arts they study. One instance included a high ranking Iai practitioner who, during a tameshigiri demonstration, came very close to slicing off his own nose. There are many accounts like this, and of course it doesn't represent other arts on the whole. I believe it was these few experiences he had that also drove him to create an art, the level of safety of which he could keep under control. I cannot overstate the importence Shinkendo puts on safety. I've had the great privilege of training directly under Kaiso a few times and, every time, he lectures on the importance and benefits of safe practice and urges us to be mindful of that.

To briefly touch on a point, The great I AM, I cannot say why Shinkendo has not been established in Japan yet. I know for a fact that Kaiso wants to reach out to Japan, but I do not officially know why. If I had to guess, I would say it has something to do with Shinkendo's relative infancy. At the most, a new student could only have 20 years experience in this art. It could be that it is simply too early. it could be political- I really don't know and I'm sorry I can't give you a good answer.

As for self publicizing, I would contend that 20 years is not a long time as far as martial arts are concerned. We must also keep in mind that Kaiso is the founder- Shinkendo is the culmination of his life work and training so I think it only natural that he'd want to do what he could while he's here to get Shinkendo into the public eye. We don't have the benefit of proving ourselves in war, we're working with what we've got.

Anyway, I don't believe anyone is claiming Shinkendo to generally be better than anything else, I certainly wouldn't make that claim to anyone. It is my opinion that there are things Shinkendo is better suited for than others and other things are better suited for certain activities than Shinkendo. As a toolbox is full of purpose designed tools, so is every martial art on Earth designed to meet the founder's intended purposes/philosophies/needs.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but Kendo, as it exists today, is totally different from as early as 60-80 years ago. As I understand it, Kendo changed and adapted in order to survive post WWII because of restrictions placed on martial arts. It took on a more competitive and, for lack of a better term, sporting nature in order to adhere to the new restrictions and maintain its existence. Kendo is, however, at the core, still Budo. Shinekendo I believe also strives to develop the spirit and feeling of Budo and it's in this way that I fail to truly understand the bad relations harbored by some between the two arts- both sides are guilty of this, it would seem.

It really is unfortunate things have developed in this way. As I've said I regard Shinkendoka as extended family, I have similar sentiments for those that earnestly study Budo in any form. There isn't a single person on Earth that we can't learn from… I think misunderstanding and assuming we know why people say what they say is how we've fallen into needlessly poor relations.

Again, I cannot stress enough that this is ME talking, not the ISF, not Kaiso. I was not told or urged to say any of this nor am I someone that has any real authority, this is simply my perspective.

I'm very sorry if this is disjointed and lacking in the way of sense and flow, but there was a lot to cover as you can see ;D

Anyway, I see no reason why Kendo and Shinkendo cannot coexist peacefully. Kendo is Kendo and Shinkendo is Shinkendo. They are similar only in name and I believe neither is attempting to be the other.

[Tony Ferguson]

Oops, brief correction

"I know for a fact that Kaiso wants to reach out to Japan, but I do not officially know why this has yet to occur."

Sorry- made a mistake in my haste and very tired state

[The great I AM]

I would say another driving factor behind Shinkendo's existence is safety. I've read one or two accounts of his that describe near reckless acts performed by people that are supposed to be adepts in the arts they study. One instance included a high ranking Iai practitioner who, during a tameshigiri demonstration, came very close to slicing off his own nose. There are many accounts like this, and of course it doesn't represent other arts on the whole. I believe it was these few experiences he had that also drove him to create an art, the level of safety of which he could keep under control. I cannot overstate the importence Shinkendo puts on safety. I've had the great privilege of training directly under Kaiso a few times and, every time, he lectures on the importance and benefits of safe practice and urges us to be mindful of that.

Dude, fair play on the considered response, but I really had to pick up on this. Please have a look at the videos on the other thread of Obata swinging a LIVE BLADE within shaving distance of students, who are HOLDING WHAT HE IS CUTTING IN THEIR HANDS. I am sorry, but that does not convey safety as a driving factor to me in any way shape or form.

[stealth_monkey]

Stealth_Monkey, I think I understand what you're saying but I may require a bit more clarification. What it sounds like is you're asserting that Shinkendo was just created "out of thin air".

Yes and no, I believe my next responses will clarify better.

Comprehensive meaning it contains what he believes are the most important aspects of swordsmanship as a whole

As I attempted to state earlier and after digging a little more into Obata, what he believes is of little worth as he has no first hand experience of what the most important aspects of swordsmanship are. Perhaps an analogy would explain my position best:

Say I was lucky enough to meet the greatest iaidoka ever to walk the earth. This notional master holding the highest rank in every iai style on the planet. I'd give me left nut to be taught iaido by this man. The amount of knowledge this man would possess about iaido would dwarf anyone I've ever seen. Now, if that man went to me and said "given my experience with iaido, I have invented a new style encompassing what I believe the most important aspects of combat with a sword" I'd ask for that left nut back. This man has no experience in combat with a sword, he is extensively experienced in iaido, which was invented by people with that experience, but he himself has none. The experience of mimicking these actions is not the same experience required to know how to change these actions

I would say another driving factor behind Shinkendo's existence is safety. I've read one or two accounts of his that describe near reckless acts performed by people that are supposed to be adepts in the arts they study. One instance included a high ranking Iai practitioner who, during a tameshigiri demonstration, came very close to slicing off his own nose. There are many accounts like this, and of course it doesn't represent other arts on the whole. I believe it was these few experiences he had that also drove him to create an art, the level of safety of which he could keep under control. I cannot overstate the importence Shinkendo puts on safety. I've had the great privilege of training directly under Kaiso a few times and, every time, he lectures on the importance and benefits of safe practice and urges us to be mindful of that.

Although I know you didn't mean it that way, this is an example of one of the reasons people have a problem with Obata. You're giving me one example of an iaidoka injuring himself. Are you willing to sit here, hand on heart and say that no-one in the history of shinkendo have ever injured themselves with a shinken? This subtle "we're better than you" runs deep through Obata's marketing and writing of his style

Shinekendo I believe also strives to develop the spirit and feeling of Budo and it's in this way that I fail to truly understand the bad relations harbored by some between the two arts- both sides are guilty of this, it would seem.

As I mentioned, the fuel for much of the bad blood between the two sides is Obata's methods of justifying his art. You don't make friends by telling anyone who'll listen you've decided every single other art is crap and you are the only one with the wisdom to change the JSA world. Exaggerated yes, but an undercurrent flows through Obata's writings as previously mentioned

Anyway, I see no reason why Kendo and Shinkendo cannot coexist peacefully. Kendo is Kendo and Shinkendo is Shinkendo. They are similar only in name and I believe neither is attempting to be the other.

I agree, I stopped attempting to change people's views on the martial arts a long time ago, it's generally easier to change their religion. Live and let live and all that.

[pgsmith]

Shinekendo I believe also strives to develop the spirit and feeling of Budo and it's in this way that I fail to truly understand the bad relations harbored by some between the two arts- ...

Mr. Ferguson,
I believe that this statement right here incompasses the vast majority of what people tend to dislike about Shinkendo. All of the Japanese sword arts with which I am familiar attempt to teach compassion, humility, and a deeper understanding of our fellow human beings. This is a very common theme in budo. However, it has been my experience that these are the very things which are missing from Mr. Obata's Shinkendo. He, and thus most of his students, vigorously praise Shinkendo by putting down other arts. You can protest, but you did exactly that in this very thread. It is a common theme that runs through Shinkendo and creates a feeling of contempt, rather than compassion for others. Mr. Obata, and thus many of his students, loudly promotes Shinkendo, which is the antithesis of the humility which is striven for in the other sword arts. Gaudy and spectacular "karate" type demonstrations are a regular Shinkendo phenomenon. Cutting with two daito and cutting targets out of student's hands are a couple of examples that are regularly performed for the public. Finally, Shinkendo does not mingle. There are a number of group activities in which many different schools participate and co-mingle. At gasshuku, seminars, and tai kai, friendships are made, ideas exchanged, and the JSA community as a whole benefits. Shinkendo is forbidden by Mr. Obata to take part in any of this. Despite the fact that Mr. Obata uses his standings from various Tai Kai as part of his justification for Shinkendo, he does not allow anyone in his organization to experience one.

So Mr. Ferguson, most JSA practitioners do not care for Shinkendo because we see you as self-promoting braggarts that consider yourselves above everyone else. This opinion is based solely upon available demonstration footage, and the occassional internet forum chat. No one is allowed to get to know you guys in any other way, so that opinion is not likely to change. You have made many excuses for the behaviour of Shinkendoka. However, as I used to always tell my Scouts, "If you find yourself making an excuse for something, stop and figure out what you messed up. You'll never have one without the other!"

I don't mean this as any sort of put-down to you, but you asked for responses, so I tried to respond honestly. I am sure that there are a great many shinkendo practitioners that are upstanding people and great martial artists. I have met a few of this type of person that were ex-Shinkendo practitioners. However, I have never personally met any current Shinkendo practitioners that fit this mould. For that matter, I've never actually ever met a current Shinkendo practitioner, as you guys aren't allowed to mingle.

Please bear in mind that these are my opinions based upon my own experiences in the Japanese sword art community. Other's may vary.

[b8amack]

For me, it's mostly because every time I see Obata, I get "Go Ninja Go Ninja Go!" stuck in my head. And I hate that. Also, the habit of his followers to speak as if with his voice "Obata Kaiso wants this... etc." is a bit odd, to me.

[ender84567]

>grabs popcorn and sits down with a fire blanket held 'gallagher' style<

[Wesley Myers]

Anyone else think it is kind of neat that when one does a search on the internet into shinkendo and Mr. Obata that Kendo-World comes up and it is exactly these threads that they get to read first about shinkendo and Mr. Obata?!

[The great I AM]

Anyone else think it is kind of neat that when one does a search on the internet into shinkendo and Mr. Obata that Kendo-World comes up and it is exactly these threads that they get to read first about shinkendo and Mr. Obata?!

That's probably why people like Ricky hate us!

[Tony Ferguson]

I understand and thank you all for your decision to share your views with me civilly and without insult.

To quickly address a point pgsmith brought up about intermingling- I can't speak for Kaiso, but what my instructor told me is that we are discouraged from participating in taikai because of the amount of experience any one person could have with Shinkendo, that being roughly 20 years. I was told that it is because Kaiso wants to be absolutely sure that when Shinkendo is represented at such a place as a taikai, that it is represented well. Like I've said before, we don't have the benefit of centuries of lineage working for us so I feel it may be because we would like to tread with caution in this respect.

This same reasoning goes with intermingling at seminars and sharing ideas. I personally believe that there are only a few key principles that apply to every known martial art, the rest of the art is merely the fingerprint of the founder. However, again, it may be due to the infancy of our art and assumed short experience in Shinkendo that this sort of thing is currently discouraged.

I feel it's worth noting that much of my feelings toward our art and Kaiso stem from personal interaction with Kaiso himself. He has never been anything less than personable, earnest and often very light hearted. This is coming from first hand experience, not an interview or excerpt that was likely sent through a translator before it ever hit paper.

I'm afraid that I cannot address the comments any further without employing some creative redundancy and I don't see how that would be productive. I don't wish to present myself as Shinkendo's spokesman or Obata Kaiso's personal liaison. What I've said above in my past posts I truly believe in and there isn't much more to it.

I did not intend to belittle anyone or any art in coming here and requesting discussion. I understand that this is a Kendo forum and I was not deluding myself into thinking I was going to receive baskets of flowers and pies pushing forward with the topic that I did.

I sincerely thank those of you that were willing to discuss this with me. I really do feel like I have a better understanding of how we're viewed from the perspective of other arts and it's given me some things to think about.

However, the one thing I came in here with that did absolutely not change is the belief that as students of Budo, which we all are, we should be able to coexist peacefully. Even if it has to be on the level suggested by stealth_monkey, to simply live and let live.

Thank you again for your indulgence and I sincerely wish everyone luck and happy training in whatever arts you may pursue

Regards,
Tony Ferguson

[ScottUK]

Kudos to everyone on the thread. A nice, open debate with no nastiness involved. I think I'll rep y'all.

I see Gibbo is still yet to call anyone a twat, and for that I am heartily ashamed to be of the same nationality as him.

[absenteekendoka]

It smells to me like someones looking for converts more so than engaging in an open discussion. Obata=Joke. I'm waiting for him to co author the next copy of "Street Sword", claim it was based on his life experiences, and how he's the "personal advisor" to the Emperor.

But thats just me. Hey, anyone got the popcorn?