Jo practice drills..?

[ps73]

Hi all...

As a new student of Iaido (M K Ryu) and Jodo, I am trying to sort out what home practice is best.

Do you have any tips on Jodo 'drills' with emphasis on Iaido-related Jodo styles?

THANKS!

[Andy_Watson]

"Iaido-related Jodo styles"?

Is that like cricket-related chess?

I don't think there is any such thing. Do you mean Seitei Jodo?

If so then these are some things you could do at home:

If you have a garden:

1. Practice everything you were taught in your last lesson
2. Do tandoku dosa as much as possible - it is for solo practice.
3. Try to practice both sides of all the kata you have been taught.

If you are training indoors:
There's not much you can do unless you have high ceilings although you can practice:

1. Kaeshi zuki
2. Getting expediently into hikiotoshi kamae
3. Almost all of Hissage
4. Kuri tsuke
5. Moving quickly to perform the block of Do barai uchi
6. Getting the first evasion of Sakan right

Listen to what your teacher tells you though. You might want to ask them what sort of practice you should do at home.

Mind the light!!!

[ps73]

lol....yes, i think my description was pretty poor. i meant to describe a style of jodo taught by the same iaido instructor, as opposed to aikido-based jodo....i'm a rookie, forgive my ignorance.

i think seitei jodo is what i meant.

thanks for your help

[Andy_Watson]

No probs. You're with Rob Coulson aren't you?

There will be a Jodo grading in March/April next year. Setting your sights on your first grading will be a really good way of developing your Jodo.

Ikkyu doesn't require much from the candidates, just get through 1-5 seiteigata, in the right order and you pass. You don't have to do it fast, hard or particularly well, you just have to do the kata.

Regards

[ps73]

Thanks Andy.

Rob is their at training, but the main sensei is dragomir. they too didn't have enough for a formal beginners course, so i've joined the class as it is. only had one lesson so far, but really enjoyed it.

I presume you're the same Andy Watson of Seishinkan Dojo in Ealing?
I enquired about a beginners course there some months ago, but I think there's been no luck so far - possibly to do with numbers? In terms of distance, Ealing would be much easier for me, so I may well come over to train with you at some stage.

[still learning]

Ikkyu doesn't require much from the candidates, just get through 1-5 seiteigata, in the right order and you pass. You don't have to do it fast, hard or particularly well, you just have to do the kata.

Andy!???
Helloooooo.......!!
You cannot say that out loud..... or commit to print........ surely not.

[Kaa]

Ikkyu doesn't require much from the candidates, just get through 1-5 seiteigata, in the right order and you pass. You don't have to do it fast, hard or particularly well, you just have to do the kata.

Darn! I've chosen the wrong art!!

[Andy_Watson]

Andy!???
Helloooooo.......!!
You cannot say that out loud..... or commit to print........ surely not.

I realise Bill has written that with a wry smile on his face but I want to make it clear to others that read this: in the BKA and the majority of the countries in the EKF and hopefully others that operate in the IKF, we follow the All Japan Kendo Federation approach to gradings.

Under that system in iaido and jodo, you are allowed to grade to ikkyu within 3 months of joining the association/federation. There is a simple reason for that short length of time - the ikkyu grading only requires a minimum of 3 months reasonable practice to pass.

How much can you acquire reasonably in 3 months?

Enough to demonstrate something like the first 3-5 kata in the right order with something like the correct execution of technique.

We really ought to be doing more to level out this understanding and eliminate the 1st kyu = brown belt = one less than black belt = just below level of teacher. This is wrong!

In an ikkyu grading the examining panel are looking for every reason to pass you and thus it is actually quite difficult to fail. This has been published on several occasions in various fora, some public and some within association. There is simply no point in holding people back from gradings. People progress to their level of challenge and in ZNKR affiliated associations that challenge is manifest in a grading system. If you waste time not getting on the grading ladder early, the 5 and 6 and 7 year gaps between the upper grades will seem like purgatory.

Yet still, on our travels in Europe we still find countries that insist on up to 6 kyu grades before one can grade ikkyu! For what purpose? Well, it doesn't seem to improve the level of those who actually can be bothered to get to ikkyu by any great means. Must be a money making activity.....gasp, I can't believe I actually wrote that!!!

The end result of such activity? As an ikkyu of 4 years you find yourself, on an international seminar, in a teaching group with people that have been doing it 3 months and you are being told how to hold the sword....that was worth it wasn't it?

[Budo Angel]

in the BKA and the majority of the countries in the EKF and hopefully others that operate in the IKF, we follow the All Japan Kendo Federation approach to gradings.

We really ought to be doing more to level out this understanding and eliminate the 1st kyu = brown belt = one less than black belt = just below level of teacher. This is wrong!

In an ikkyu grading the examining panel are looking for every reason to pass you and thus it is actually quite difficult to fail. This has been published on several occasions in various fora, some public and some within association.

Yet still, on our travels in Europe we still find countries that insist on up to 6 kyu grades before one can grade ikkyu! For what purpose?
..gasp, I can't believe I actually wrote that!!!

I say this tongue-in-cheek with a metaphorical big barrel of beer waiting in the pub... but these kind statements Dr Watson (my dear sempai) belongs in the FLAMES section

Hello (booming echo), does the rest of the BKA and the EKF know or share the same sentiments, across all THREE budo arts - me thinks definately not

Good luck with this debate chaps !! I shall for once resist jumping in with my lousy ('facieous' inferred SL ) English as that plus my brain is probably worthy only of ikkyu

And in answer to the exam question - jodo drills, isn't that called "Something-Dosa"

[Andy_Watson]

No, I'm not talking about THREE arts, as I said:

Under that system in iaido and jodo, you are allowed to grade to ikkyu within 3 months of joining the association/federation. There is a simple reason for that short length of time - the ikkyu grading only requires a minimum of 3 months reasonable practice to pass.

Actually the vast majority, if not all, of the high grades (and I use the term here to mean the top three tiers of dan grades) believe that ikkyu should be as I have descibed it. The EKF have no criteria for sub-6th dan grades because that is not of EKF concern, it is determined by national associations and federations.

Do the member associations of the EKF share the same opinions as in my post? Obviously not but I went to explain that in the same post and asked the question, why didn't they follow the ZNKR system. The older member countries of the EKF however, on the whole, do follow the same system. It is the within the younger associations that this high strictness to ikkyu grading seems to appear.

I know I'm going off topic but why should this go in the flames section other than to falsely escalate this discussion into "oh my God, so controversial!".

It's not controversial - ask any 7th dan in the UK, Holland, Switzerland or Belgium. Read the peer reviewed Examiner Mentoring Programme guidance document. Read the ZNKR guidance to examiners. Ikkyu is supposed to be easy (it's supposed to be the first proper step on the grading ladder), hachidan is meant to be life-challenging difficult.

[Jason Anstey]

... belonging to a Renmei that does the 4 kyu levels in Jo (6 in Iai)

I am in total agreement with Andy on this one, it is an issue I have discussed on quite a few occasions. If the way of grading is good enough in Japan, why do we need to do it differently or have the belief that "our" way is better for us non Japanese? - I think the answer is that we hold the level of Shodan in much higher regard than the Japanese. Black belt is almost like Teacher.

In Oz you need the 12 tandoku-dosa and 2 kata for 2nd kyu (if memory serves), this is would be difficult for most in a 3 month period.

Anyway, I think skills level or balance out at Sandan or certainly Yondan regardless of the kyu system. Doing this longer time up to Shodan doesn't make better Sandans or Yondans in my observations.

These my opinions only

[Andy_Watson]

... belonging to a Renmei that does the 4 kyu levels in Jo (6 in Iai)

I am in total agreement with Andy on this one, it is an issue I have discussed on quite a few occasions. If the way of grading is good enough in Japan, why do we need to do it differently or have the belief that "our" way is better for us non Japanese? - I think the answer is that we hold the level of Shodan in much higher regard than the Japanese. Black belt is almost like Teacher.

In Oz you need the 12 tandoku-dosa and 2 kata for 2nd kyu (if memory serves), this is would be difficult for most in a 3 month period.

Anyway, I think skills level or balance out at Sandan or certainly Yondan regardless of the kyu system. Doing this longer time up to Shodan doesn't make better Sandans or Yondans in my observations.

These my opinions only

Jas

I absolutely agree with your last comment. I have seen people "grade sitting" for European championships and they get beaten by people who are newer than them and fighting to get through their grades. I have also seen people dawdling around in their day-to-day training - getting me worried about their next gradings - and then pull a blinder on the day (actually this point isn't so relevant to the discussion, only that grading reluctance isn't necessary or healthy).

I seem to remember my ikkyu grading in Japan was 3 tandoku dosa and the first 3 kata. It's amazing what a focussed mind and a very strict teacher can achieve though. Again this isn't particularly relevant to the discussion.

I am pretty certain that black belt mysticism is one of the prime causes for kyu fanatisism and it would be nice if some of the statements from our Japanese senseis were published (Haruna Sensei's analogy with markings on the wall would be a great one to publish, hint hint Peter West).

I remember when one of the leaders of one of the European associations I visited once was asked why they had such a long kyu system his response was "so that we have such a strong ikkyu division at the European championships" - I nearly swallowed my head! Just for clarity, there are only two competitors per dan rank per country at the European championships.

[still learning]

I realise Bill has written that with a wry smile on his face .....

Correct! [You see.... I DO smile (if only wryly)] Tongue was firmly 'in cheek'...........

Having been a member of Grading Panel[s] for Ikkyu (Iaido) it is clear that some are streets ahead of others.........

Is this down to natural ability/skill?
..... a longer period of study-practise-learning?
........candidates' Sensei 'holding them back' until the candidates are absolutely assured of passing due to 'more-than-adequate' skills/performance?
All [or none] of the above...........?

Whatever may be the case........ Ikkyu candidates are to be encouraged....... NOT criticised by early (first-step) failure.

[Andy_Watson]

Bill

Absolutely. No one should be held back from doing their gradings unless their teacher seriously doesn't think they are ready. It is thus the teacher's responsibility to act and decide responsibly and I think there are some teachers who don't do that.

Why is there sometimes such a wide range of abilities in grading groups? I am sure all of the reasons you stated are true in some instances.

I also have a theory that the whole process of seeing movement or hearing instruction, mentally absorbing it, accurately recording it and then physically representing it (and then the same kinaesthetic feedback through the above chain) is reliant upon a certain sensory "language" which a person has a varying ability to "speak". I am told that the inability to "speak this language" is called development dyspraxia but I don't know enough about it to say for certain. Those that speak it fluently naturally or through learning and training (pro dancers for example) can pick up martial arts quite naturally, those that lack it have to find alternative routes through that process, the metaphorical or literal scribbling down of notes in order to reperform an observed movement.

I believe that it is this language fluency that has the dominant effect on grading performance. Surprisingly I have seen duration of training is, in more cases than not, only secondary in scale of effect.

Wow, talk about thread drift...

[still learning]

[*]Practice everything you were taught in your last lesson[*]Do tandoku dosa as much as possible - it is for solo practice.[*]Try to practice both sides of all the kata you have been taught.[/LIST]

Wow, talk about thread drift...

This thread has room to drift;the original question was answered long ago.
[see first quote (above)]