Jo practice drills..?

[Kim Taylor]

One very powerful reason to institute a kyu system in a country or a club is a lack of rank up top. Many people are more comfortable with their students sitting below them on the ranking scale, and for many students that's also a good thing (beginners tend to associate rank with ability and get confused when they catch up to their teacher in rank). Westerners don't really understand the sempai system deep down.

With the ranking system as it is, students catch up with their sensei in us younger countries, if fact we've got three or four folks who are about to step up to my rank once more in the CKF jodo section. I'm only a year ahead of them and that means they spend more and more time at my grade as we move through the ranks. We don't have a problem with that but it could be in certain areas.

Another small point on kyu grades, our examiners in all three arts really dislike failing ikkyu students but sometimes have to. In that case a call goes out yet again to clubs to do at least a 2-kyu grade in-house so that the students have some preparation for their ikkyu. Too many of them arrive without any preparation for a grading at all and these are the ones that end up failing to bad feelings all around.

There are also juniors to consider, not such a problem in iai or jo but kendo kids should have some sort of path to move along until they meet the minimum age for shodan.

Kim

[ps73]

drift away...this is all very interesting information.....!

[still learning]

@ kim;

All valid points........ and well put.

When my sensei started our Iaido + Jodo Dojo he had recently achieved his
4th Dan........ and I looked up that 'hill' and thought 'I will never catch him......'

I am now a 5th Dan.... as is he..... so is another chap who started 2 years after me..... and we have a 4th Dan who started 2 years after that.

I now realise that catching up should never be an issue.

I am Dojo Leader in my Kendo Dojo....... though I am only a 2nd Dan [with the BKA/EKF].... and it was a proud day for me when one of my students graded above me........

His progression to 'above' me embarrassed him a little, but he soon came to terms with it and stated that no matter how long he trains he will always consider our relationship as Sempai-Kohai.

My viewpoint; if they are ready - - they are ready.

[Harry Jones]

Here Here!

[Emanuele Covino]

Yet still, on our travels in Europe we still find countries that insist on up to 6 kyu grades before one can grade ikkyu! For what purpose? Well, it doesn't seem to improve the level of those who actually can be bothered to get to ikkyu by any great means. Must be a money making activity.....gasp, I can't believe I actually wrote that!!!

You wrote it and it is true.
The only reason is money.

[Budo Angel]

The only reason is money.

I think it is a reason, but not the only reason

We're not just talking about European countries, but as another chap pointed out, Australia and other places too...

I remember a short aside chat at a seminar (a few years ago now), when someone realised I took my ikkyu for Iai after 3 months, and shodan after 7 & half months (Jo was not much more)... now by their country rules (nameless) they were allowed to take ONE kyu exam, their 6th preparing for their 5th (in Iai/Jo) in the same time scale as me... I felt embarassed more for their lack of opportunity, rather than my speedy grading chance or ability

if they are ready - - they are ready

True, does the shinsa panel decide, or is it a Fed or Assoc putting up hurdles where none really should exist at "only ikkyu"...

One very powerful reason to institute a kyu system in a country or a club is a lack of rank up top

I agreed Kim said a few points, much better than I could myself. The above sentence definately applies to a couple of (bogu) budo I can think of...but why ? its not money in my book, its other reasons Kim perhaps touched on, which on a Friday evening, and utterly bone sober, probably won't/don't draw myself into

For what purpose?

(Indeed - yes, I know being fair, Andy was only commenting on Iai & Jo, but after all on KW-Forum and IKF, its three budo under the same umbrella...)

[Kim Taylor]

While I can see some reasons for kyu grades in the FIK system, I don't use them myself, being in a University situation and having adult students there isn't really any point.

I wrote once that there really are only one or two ranks in any organization. The first is when you can teach (put students forth for grades) and the second when you can give grades (sit on a grading panel) yourself. Sometimes they are the same rank, sometimes the ranks change a bit.

In the FIK you can teach (sign off on your students) at 5dan and you used to sit on a grading panel at the same rank. In the Aikido system that I "grew up" in, you could teach at shodan and give rank at 6dan.

So the equivalent teaching ranks were shodan and godan. In the case of Aikido we had 5 kyu levels and one went through them in about 5 years minimum. In the CKF you can grade ikkyu at any time, and need a bare minimum of 11.5 years... coincidentally what I took to receive shodan in Aikido.

So unless you're dealing with kids who are too young for dan rank, I don't see much use in kyu grades in the CKF, but can see that they are absolutely essential in the aikido system.

Actually, my simplified grading system has to be a bit more complicated these days since the FIK has a graduated system of grading panel grade requirements, so that one can sit a panel from 3dan if I remember right.

Kim.

[Jklak]

Yet still, on our travels in Europe we still find countries that insist on up to 6 kyu grades before one can grade ikkyu! For what purpose? Well, it doesn't seem to improve the level of those who actually can be bothered to get to ikkyu by any great means. Must be a money making activity.....gasp, I can't believe I actually wrote that!!!

You wrote it and it is true.
The only reason is money.

So you mean that if you don't give newbie ikkyu in jodo after tree months training, they will walk a way?!? Then you lose the money the newbie could bring to yours club?!?

[Emanuele Covino]

So you mean that if you don't give newbie ikkyu in jodo after tree months training, they will walk a way?!? Then you lose the money the newbie could bring to yours club?!?

Budo is never a matter of money.

[Budo Angel]

having adult students there isn't really any point.

Budo is never a matter of money

Here here to both points.

you're dealing with kids who are too young for dan rank, I don't see much use in kyu grades

Think that was the main debate...why kyu (besides ikkyu obviously) exams for adults with minimum (3-6 months) time periods for each kyu...when in Japan the real level of taking a student forward with their 'serious interest' begins with shodan (not 'ends' with this percieved western notion of being a 'black belt' expert by 1dan).

(ps: guys, please don't labour on my 3 months as the example... every student is different, every dojo, every teacher and clearly every country. The circumstances were combination of things, an exception perhaps (though I am not stating to be an 'exception'. My dojo sempai & sensei take full credit for achievements, not me)

[Jklak]

Budo is never a matter of money.

Emanuel, if it is so? Why you dare to say about our kyu-system: "The only reason is money", in jodo? How much do you or Andy know abot our kyu-system in jodo? I think that you don't even have slightest interest to study our system.

We don't have jodo-sensei in every club. So the kyu system it is important to us who try to teach this art to beginers (adults or youngsters). Our kyu system gives benchmark to us how we have succeed to teach and what to we should do next. Of couse if we have had blessed with nanadan kyoshi jodo-sensei in every club we could and might grade ikkyu in first grade.

After all the grading in whole kyu-grade system is 10 + 5 x 20 euro. Not so much in couple of years.

[Andy_Watson]

Sorry if you're offended by these comments but this dog just doesn't bark anymore.

To get things out of the way, money will always be an integral part of martial arts organisation, it is the mechanism by which things get done, some people pay for it, some people get paid for it. Sometimes it gets in the way of things, other times it facilitates otherwise difficult circumstances.

Regarding running long kyu grade structures though, I realise that Finland may not have as many high grades in the country as other European countries but that simply isn't a good reason for running it.

Firstly, one doesn't have to be a grade above their students for the students to regard this person as senior. By stretching out the kyu system and placing onself one or two kyu rungs above their students is laughable - would that senior who may have been training for 4-5 years call a shodan from another country who has practiced for 9 months "sensei"?

Secondly in the halcyon days of iaido and jodo in Europe, a small number of individuals had to dig deep into their pockets to either get their dan grading in Japan or pay for a group of sensei to come over here to sit on a grading panel. This should be even easier nowadays where Europe has an abundance of high grades to invite or to go to a neighbouring country to do a grading.

Thirdly, Finland is hardly a country suffering from national poverty, I can't believe that people who train in jodo can't get some money together to go and get graded (if their teachers aren't grading though then I can see how this would be an obstacle).

No, sorry, the lack of national high grades is no excuse for creating overly long kyu systems; it makes participation in European taikai unfair for others and it creates staleness in the growth of something that should be dynamic and challenging.

[Emanuele Covino]

Emanuel, if it is so? Why you dare to say about our kyu-system: "The only reason is money", in jodo? How much do you or Andy know abot our kyu-system in jodo? I think that you don't even have slightest interest to study our system.

We don't have jodo-sensei in every club. So the kyu system it is important to us who try to teach this art to beginers (adults or youngsters). Our kyu system gives benchmark to us how we have succeed to teach and what to we should do next. Of couse if we have had blessed with nanadan kyoshi jodo-sensei in every club we could and might grade ikkyu in first grade.
.

I didn't mean any offence, Jklak, I was only stating my opinion (as usual, maybe I'm wrong). On the contrary, I'm interested in Kyu-system option,
you could explain more about it.

We too (in Italy) do not have high grades in Jodo (yondan is the top), and our solution is to invite them from abroad, or follow them in the rest of Europe. Of course it is expensive and sometimes fatiguing, but i think it is the only way. In the Ryanair era, you can easily offer to your students a nanadan teacher.

The greatest problem I see in the kyu system is that it could be a bit confusing; for me, because I'm not sure I am enough experienced to say to my students "you are not ready for ikkyu"; and for them, because they can book a plane and compare their skills with those of other people. And if they think they are ready for ikkyu, I let them go, because I have to trust the people on the examination panel. They do their job, I trust them, and if they think that the guy is good enough, well, it is.

Of course, an ikkyu in Ealing will be better then an ikkyu in Bari, because of the history and the teachers and a lot of other things, but at the end kyu or dan grades are just labels.

[Andy_Watson]

I didn't mean any offence, Jklak, I was only stating my opinion (as usual, maybe I'm wrong). On the contrary, I'm interested in Kyu-system option,
you could explain more about it.

We too (in Italy) do not have high grades in Jodo (yondan is the top), and our solution is to invite them from abroad, or follow them in the rest of Europe. Of course it is expensive and sometimes fatiguing, but i think it is the only way. In the Ryanair era, you can easily offer to your students a nanadan teacher.

The greatest problem I see in the kyu system is that it could be a bit confusing; for me, because I'm not sure I am enough experienced to say to my students "you are not ready for ikkyu"; and for them, because they can book a plane and compare their skills with those of other people. And if they think they are ready for ikkyu, I let them go, because I have to trust the people on the examination panel. They do their job, I trust them, and if they think that the guy is good enough, well, it is.

Of course, an ikkyu in Ealing will be better then an ikkyu in Bari, because of the history and the teachers and a lot of other things, but at the end kyu or dan grades are just labels.

Em

That's a very kind compliment to pay our dojo but I really don't agree. We have our own share of naturally gifted students as well as a larger spread of people who don't take to the martial art particularly easily or rapidly. No amount of high grade teaching can change that, you cannot force an elephant into a bottle no matter how hard you push. I have seen the same distribution of skills even in Ishido Sensei's dojo where (gasp!) you might not believe this but not every person there could come to Europe and win a taikai!

My feelings on this are that generally people will rise to the level of challenge but at a rate proportional to their ability to digest teaching which is why we push our people to grade as soon as possible. You may find that in most cases, people that have been doing iaido or jodo for five years and have taken gradings will be somehow more proficient than someone who has been practicing for the same amount of time but has stayed the same grade. There are lots of reasons for this and I think we have discussed them ad nauseum.

You are absolutely right about access to 7th dans in these days. It is cheaper for me to fly to Eindhoven that it is to catch the train to the north of England. To say that a European country should be held back because they don't have any domestic high grades is akin to someone in the countryside of Japan saying there is no one in their prefecture to teach them.

[Budo Angel]

you cannot force an elephant into a bottle no matter how hard you push

My sempai is not inferring his dojo members are all elephants (erm, just me... perhaps)

cheaper for me to fly to Eindhoven that it is to catch the train to the north of England
or follow them in the rest of Europe

That's the scandal of being in Britain it really is cheaper to fly to European events to get instruction, than to stay glued in your own country...

an ikkyu in Ealing will be better then an ikkyu in Bari access to 7th dans

He's quite correct on this point, the only difference between ikkyu in Ealing to Bari, is the 7th dan teacher and 5 dan dojo seniors.

you don't even have slightest interest to study our system

Jklak, please, I think both do care (enough to offer their opinion) about the overall progress of Jodo in wider Europe, rather than outright criticism of having "no interest" in a single country's right to choose what they do.