Ishido sensei video

[Ralutin]

Latest video posted by YouTuber noshyudo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Wu34iGSoU

Pretty good insights on how Ishido sensei performs MSR shoden ryu-to and okuden yukichigai(?)...damn you Europeans are lucky to have him visit you on a semi-regular basis!

Cross-posted in the Media sub-forum.

[willszenith]

I totally disagree with personal training sessions with any sensei to be posted online for everyone to point at. The individual that recorded and posted it should know better.

[Peter West]

Oh not another one. When will people learn that sensei only allows filming for personal use. The more it is abused the sooner cameras will be banned in practices.

[Nukitsuke]

So the rest of us lose out on the opportunity to view some quality instruction by high ranking sensei that we would otherwise never have access to?
Hmmmm.
Brad

[ghostdancer]

speaking as someone who has never had access to a high level sensei
(this is not to denigrate my instuctors teaching but he would be the first to admit he is neither a sensei or high ranking) hes a 3 dan

yes if the vids are for personal use only then thats how they should stay basically you are getting the instruction on the cheap
how much would a commercial vid of this type cost ( a lot )
also there is a breach of trust to consider
the sensei trusts that the person will only use them for personal use even by not disagreeing with the premise you are still breaking his trust

sorry if i come across as a bit pompous but thats how i feel

[willszenith]

speaking as someone who has never had access to a high level sensei
(this is not to denigrate my instuctors teaching but he would be the first to admit he is neither a sensei or high ranking) hes a 3 dan

yes if the vids are for personal use only then thats how they should stay basically you are getting the instruction on the cheap
how much would a commercial vid of this type cost ( a lot )
also there is a breach of trust to consider
the sensei trusts that the person will only use them for personal use even by not disagreeing with the premise you are still breaking his trust

sorry if i come across as a bit pompous but thats how i feel

I think you are completely correct, the contained a koryu form from jushin ryu, itself the form is very dynamic and also in my eyes probably very difficult to execute unless properly taught in that particular style, however being so blatent with the video means any tom, dick and nutjob will try to emulate the form unsuccesfully . hurt themselves or others. I will never understand why people feel the need to post videos like this except to satisfy their own ego's of 'look who I train with'

If you get permission from a sensei then im all for video tuition and help, however at the next seminar we are all standing there getting a bollocking from senior grades about recording equipment or a blanket ban on them , then you have to ask was it worth it,

Ask yourself this, if you cant keep a simple instruction of keeping private videos to yourself then how can you recieve instruction from any sensei? im a firm believer that if my sensei says dont do it , then I dont... I dont sneak off an do it behind his back, iI owe my sensei, fellow instructors, seminar teachers a debt of gratitude, and that has to remain even outside the dojo not just turned on and off at a whim

Rant over

regards all....

[Nukitsuke]

Of course if the sensei asks you to not post it, then you shouldn't. That's just common sense and courtesy.

I don't even consider those people who try to learn from video - it can't be done well, and probably shouldn't be done at all.

Myself having never seen obscure koryu or Jushin ryu would love the opportunity to be able to see some of the kata, enjoy the similarities/differences from the koryu I study, and be able to ask informed questions or have a discussion about it. I'm not going to try to learn it from the video. I don't consider posting videos an ego booster either, but I suppose there are those kinds of people out there.

Personally, I wouldn't post videos that my sensei has allowed me to record for training purposes online. I do (with his permission) make them available for my students and tell them the same thing- don't post them.

If the person who posted the video did so without permission, then of course it should be removed. If permission is not an issue, and he was making a video of an obscure koryu available for everyone to enjoy, then I don't see any problems with it.
Brad

[Peter West]

There are 2 separate aspects to consider here.
After a lifetime training Sensei has great skill. He chooses who he shares that with. People who attend seminars pay for that privilege.
Sensei kindly allows people at the seminar to film what he is showing so that they can review and revise what they were taught by him on the seminar they paid for.
They did not pay for the privilege of publishing copyright material. A person's image performing their skills is copyright, just like music or film. Distributing it without specific permission from the copyright holder is illegal.

The second issue is that of the sensei's integrity. While high grades are allowed to teach their students and seminars, making instructional videos is greatly frowned upon by the ZNKR. Times change, techniques change, and quite frankly no-one, even at the top, the most senior Hanshi are prepared to put out a video as if it were a definitive performance, as that would imply an arrogant belief that they were superior to other Hanshi and that the performace should be a fixed reference for correct technique. Therefore when a Sensei allows videoing of himself teaching, he is definitely not intending that the video be distributed as public property and only that it is for the use of students present at the session being filmed. The more these videos find their way onto the internet, the more potential damage they do to the reputation of the sensei themselves.

We owe these Sensei a great deal for the knowledge they share with us. The least we can do is try and ensure that their efforts do not become damaging to themselves. The only way we can do that is to discourage the practice of posting such items.

[chidokan]

I have always had mixed feelings about videos... I have a huge collection of MJER tapes going back to the pre war years, and they are fascinating to watch.... However. The question is what can you gain from them, and would I want them sharing out into the general domain? I have an 'official' video of Iwata sensei which he recorded about 15 years ago, and is available to the general public. Needless to say I also have 'unofficial' tape from that time. The comparison between the two is quite interesting, in that there are things missing from the 'official tape' , specifically his 'iai personality/aura' is not there.... and this applies to all sensei and tapes I have who I have met/studied with. In particular, I have one of Haruna sensei, and no-one could deny his 'presence on the mat' was stupendous. The technique is crisp, nice to watch etc, but I do not get the 'feeling' of him, and have to rely on my memory of his personality to see it for real as it were...
So to answer my first question, you can spot timing/technical changes only, maybe see odd kae waza? Do I want them sharing outside my group? No, although I would be prepared to pass them on to certain personal contacts who I trust and would benefit from watching... so perhaps personal friends who are say 7 dan or above. Below that there is no benefit... low grades do not understand how to watch correctly, as this is also something you learn as you progress... I don't mean to be rude here, but there are nuances that are difficult to pick up from really senior grades unless you have already learnt some more difficult material...

[Peter West]

I agree with Tim entirely, but let's be clear, he is talking about something quite different. This is a historical archive and is being referenced for interest in longer term lineage and source material. I suspect, though really don't know, that much of this material will be embu of kata much more than teaching of method. It is the videos of current sensei teaching that are the items I take issue with.

[willszenith]

Totally agree, and the wealth of information that say Tim has built up and been trusted with is because he doesnt abuse or make the information avaliable to just anyone, experienced teachers etc , know what average joe swordsman like me can and cant understand.

but when videos are thrown around for the sake of self promotion ( because I dont know any other reason you would put your ownpersonal training sessions online tbh)

I wish people would just think, think about the bigger fall out from a simple action, those who don t have access to senior grades and only attend a seminar infrequently and make great sacrifices to be there , these people rely on videos reference in their training, but the selfish and unbudo acts of others will hamper these equally dedicated budoka, if you are priviliged to have personal training sessions with high grade sensei, then that's great, but next time you area at a seminar and those who have travelled hundreds of miles in respect and dedication to senior sensei teaching, hoping to gleam some help and information cant record the information they need then ask yourself was it all worth it?

I am sorry to rant , personally Im not a huge fan off videos, I think they dont pick up various concepts that are important at all levels, but i can see video taping becoming an issue, I can see it being banned.

Im a junior grade with a very simple belief in dojo time , be respectful to your teachers, and do the most correct technique you can do and do it often, all the senior grades above you never had you tube or video technology, it was quite simply dojo time...

last rant, blame my snowed in status

[chidokan]

The split is actually about 50/50 for embu vs teaching... (about 30 hours of each type) The old stuff is mainly embu, but this is possibly because the tapes of the time were short running. For example, Mori Shigeki sensei's full waza sets are done as three takes... Clips of taikai are common, as are 'here's so and so senseis with X sensei at 'kyoto dojo' etc.
Teaching videos seem to start in the early 60's with the availability of longer running tape. My favourites however are a couple showing visits by Iwata sensei to his teachers. They are discussing technique, and despite his age, Yamamoto Takuji s. gets his sword and starts doing mae, whilst Mori Shigeki s. gives them a lecture. (Apparently both videos were taken about a month before each died). We take videos during training purely down to the fact that we get bombarded with so much info, and despite note taking (my 'notes' currently run to 140 pages..) you can't remember it all... I am particularly grateful that we got some of Takeshima s. teaching TUNK, as he has since passed away, and the lesson I had with him was a 'brain burnout'.. despite the hard practise afterwards, I still forgot some and was pleased to be reminded when I got home...
I personally don't have anything against it... if people want to take videos of me, fine. If they want to slag me off using this as evidence, fine. However if they wish to use my ineptitude as an example of how good my teacher can teach me for example, at that point they have 'crossed the line'.

If videos are posted as useful references on youtube, fine. If you stick them up and say 'brilliant' (ie my sensei is a superhero) I will deliberately go out of my way to wind you up by saying 'I know people who are better'...a bite is usually guaranteed... (The slapdown is directed at the poster, not the sensei BTW!)
It is nice to see how senior guys interpret each waza and gives you a nice 'twist' on perspective that makes you think about your own personal interpretation. Sometimes this is enough to give you further insights, sometimes not. If it is a 'legitimate' line and related to MJER I will watch it.... If I see something useful I ask sensei if this would 'work' for me and my version. It usually does and he just says I have seen it in a way my brain understands it. A good example is teaching, say, a shodan. you can show him how to cut correctly as many times as you want, he never gets it, then a fellow teacher comes along, repeats your words exactly, and he gets it straight away...its not you, just how you both interact.
In addition to the 'club collection' of 60 hours, I probably have the same again of what I and friends have taken over the last 15 years or so...

I am hunting for a full video which was taken during Iwata s' first visit to the UK and has clips on the net. If anyone has a copy I would be grateful for a copy (it has me on it with a full head of hair...it would be nice to see this to remind me what it was like.. )