"Preaching" in the dojo?

[atgm]

One aspect of kendo that I really enjoy is that before and after the actual practice, sensei will often talk to us about other things related to kendo. Some of the things he has talked to us about in the past are: the relationships between jodo, kendo, and iaido; the history of kendo; the analects of Confucius; how to apply kendo principles to life.

He always emphasizes the idea that you need to have a "correct" heart/soul to do good kendo, and that if you live a good life, you can do good kendo. Correct meaning polite, courteous, considerate, and determined. He says that in kendo, you pick a target and give it everything you have, with no regrets; that we should do the same in life.

I have absolutely no problems with this. It's entirely secular and it's a good philosophy, both for me and for the kids he teaches.

I had never really stopped to consider that not all dojos might be like this; I've only been to one other place here, and the other place was chock-full of kids practicing more or less seriously. When I was talking to my sensei about kids graduating from our dojo and going to middle school this year, essentially halving our class size, I mentioned that the other dojo, which is very close, has tons of kids and I didn't understand why.

He said that a lot of kids in the other dojo started at ours, but they went to the other one after they learned the basics because they (or their parents) didn't like his talks. He thinks it's sad (and I agree!) because not all dojos teach the way he does and the other dojo in particular doesn't really focus on reigi, just the physical aspects of kendo, for kids, as a sport.

I'm hesitant to put all of this online, but I'm also curious about what other people think... does this kind of "preaching" have a place in kendo? Is it necessary? Does it add something to kendo?

I think that while it's not necessary, it does add a lot to kendo and helps in making good people as well as good kenshi. I can't imagine kendo without the philosophy.

[stealth_monkey]

I personally don't agree with the martial arts as moral development school. I practise martial arts to practise martial arts, I read and live to develop morally. That said, however, as long as a teachings are secular and it's not cutting into class time, I'd have no issues with a sensei attempting to spread a few pearls of wisdom around. I always lovea good discussion or debate on philosophy

As to your second point. No, not all clubs are like yours, in fact I consciously tend to avoid clubs focussing on the "spirituality of budo" side, nothing against them, it's just that the crowd they tend to attract and the crowd I enjoy training with generally don't mesh well.

[Splinter]

Obviously I'm not an expert on the subject, so please take what I say with a grain of salt

I'm not certain any Japanese martial art can be considered useful in warfare or brawls - this is especially true if one only considers the physical aspects of training. There is simply too much stylized form and specializations for it to be effective on the battlefield, so then the emphasis must instead be on art.

As I understand it, the Tokugawa's regime was the one that unified Japan. They toppled the previous regime and turned Japan into a caste system in order to secure their place on top for generations to come. The warrior class is removed from the field and became administrative in nature, effectively bastardizing it. Well...maybe bastardizing is too harsh a word, but from then on a lot of the martial training became highly theatrical. For better or worst, most of martial art developed during that time was used to train and discipline the mind...not to win battles.

So if you only train martial art in order to fight and pay no attention to the philosophy behind it, you are missing the point entirely.

[stealth_monkey]

I'm not certain any Japanese martial art can be considered useful in warfare or brawls

Judo (and it's derivative BJJ) and kyokushin are widely considered fine brawling arts, however, it's true, Japanese and Chinese martial arts have poor reputations when it comes to effectiveness

Well...maybe bastardizing is too harsh a word, but from then on a lot of the martial training became highly theatrical. For better or worst, most of martial art developed during that time was used to train and discipline the mind...not to win battles.

I definitely agree

So if you only train martial art in order to fight and pay no attention to the philosophy behind it, you are missing the point entirely.

You missed an important qualifier there, assuming people practise for the same reasons you practise. Unless you're the creator of the art you're discussing, assuming that any art has one singular "point" is a pretty bold assumption to make.

[ben]

I think the kind of "talks" the OP's sensei gives are nothing unusual and are pretty standard IME. Particularly the hanshi hachidan who travel the world teaching kendo to foreigners tend to emphasise the ningen keisei (personal development) aspect of kendo, it's history and status as budo as opposed to sport, etc, etc. This is partly because it's the ZNKR party line, and also because they most often have first-hand experience of how incredibly competition-oriented young Japanese kendoka have become, and they don't like what it is doing to kendo.

A famous study, cited here, found that teaching MA techniques to adolescents without a cultural or philosophical/ethical context (i.e. teaching techniques with a sole emphasis on how to defeat an opponent in a fight) increased levels of aggressiveness and anti-social behaviour measurably in that study group, as opposed to a lessening of aggressiveness in the group that learnt MA in a cultural context, and a neutral result for the control group who learnt a simple team sport for the same period.

The moral of that would seem to be that if you are teaching these skills, there is an onus on you as the instructor to be a role-model not just technically but also socially. The messages that come from a highly-respected "sensei figure" can be really taken on board to an enormous degree by impressionable young psyches.

b

[D'Artagnan]

This is an interesting topic.

At the practices I attend it is usual for the leading sensei(s) to give something of a talk, either at the beginning, end or both of the practice. The topic really does vary (even with the same sensei) from technical points, to perhaps what would be thought of as 'spiritual' points, to even things as simple as 'it's cold at the moment so please be careful not to catch a cold'...

Personally I think it is a great thing, and I think it is important for a teacher to share his thoughts and experiences with his students. However, when the students are children things are different. They (probably) get lectured plenty at school, and (depending on their age) don't have the attention span to absorb anything particilarly complex (in this sense). So it doesn't surprise me that the youngsters aren't responding that well to it. I have been lucky to be involved in childrens kendo in various places, and in my experience, kids often have (or should have) a major overiding priority when it comes to kendo - winning shiai (I'll be controversial and here and say that's how I believe it should be, but that's a different kettle of fish). The more 'spiritual' aspects become relevant to them when they grow older (post university) and until then they respond better to simply being told what to do(in a phsyical sense - i.e. move your feet like this, hit him on the head, shout, run past as fast as you can - that sort of thing).

I guess in essence I think your sensei's talks are a very good thing, but perhaps they should be (re)tailored for the audience?

[atgm]

I think the kind of "talks" the OP's sensei gives are nothing unusual and are pretty standard IME. Particularly the hanshi hachidan who travel the world teaching kendo to foreigners tend to emphasise the ningen keisei (personal development) aspect of kendo, it's history and status as budo as opposed to sport, etc, etc. This is partly because it's the ZNKR party line, and also because they most often have first-hand experience of how incredibly competition-oriented young Japanese kendoka have become, and they don't like what it is doing to kendo.

My sensei definitely falls into that older, more conservative mold, both because of his age and rank, I think. Before he retired, he was a Japanese teacher in one of the more prominent high schools in the area (Koshien, yeah!), which I think may factor into his decision to teach like this.

However, when the students are children things are different. They (probably) get lectured plenty at school, and (depending on their age) don't have the attention span to absorb anything particilarly complex (in this sense). So it doesn't surprise me that the youngsters aren't responding that well to it.

I don't know about their schools, but kids do more or less get lectured at the schools I teach at. The impression I've gotten is that a lot of parents don't do much "parenting" per se... and the schools are limited in what they can do as well, so we get a lot of stuck-up, know-it-all kids who don't want to listen to anyone and do whatever they want.

So I think it's nice, in a way, that someone they respect is taking the time to tell them that politeness and respect are important... even moreso because they're crucial in kendo as well. Perhaps they won't "get" it now, but in the future, even as early as junior high, perhaps something will "click" for them from what he talks about.

Surprisingly enough, the kids are all great at memorizing the Analects in classical Japanese, whether or not they seem to be paying attention. He also has them learn to count in English and Chinese, using it as a listening/watching exercise (lipreading), showing that it's important to use all of your senses in keiko as well.

Obviously, though, I'm biased... >.>

[D'Artagnan]

So I think it's nice, in a way, that someone they respect is taking the time to tell them that politeness and respect are important... even moreso because they're crucial in kendo as well. Perhaps they won't "get" it now, but in the future, even as early as junior high, perhaps something will "click" for them from what he talks about.

I agree completely. Actually I think it is pretty crucial, I think the point I was (badly) trying to make is that the kids should get the 'lecture' from the sensei, but it should be relevant to their age... Most sensei I have seen give these kind of talks to kids tend to stick to simple things like 'don't be rude to people', 'respect your elders', 'try you best at school as well as at kendo' etc. As oppose to talking to them about things like the relationship between Kendo, Jodo and Iaido... Sorry for being a little unclear.

[atgm]

Ah, yeah. When he talks about the relationship between kendo, jodo, and iaido, it's to emphasize that they each add to the other and that you can improve your kendo by working on the others. It's somewhat relevant to our situation since we all do jodo as a warmup in the summer and I do iaido now.

[b8amack]

I'm not certain any Japanese martial art can be considered useful in warfare or brawls - this is especially true if one only considers the physical aspects of training. There is simply too much stylized form and specializations for it to be effective on the battlefield, so then the emphasis must instead be on art.

You obviously haven't been watching Steven Seagal: Lawman. Martial arts training helped him damn near light a match with a gun. It also helps him spot criminals.

[annoraderenart@]

I think this says it all.
"The Purpose of Kendo
To mold the mind and body
To cultivate a vigorous spirit through correct and rigorous training.
To strive for improvement in the art of kendo
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor
To pursue the cultivation of oneself and associate with others with sincerity and respect
This will enable oneself to love one's country and society, contribute to the development of culture, and promote peace and prosperity among all peoples."

If the kendo community wants to avoid becoming McKendo everywhere, I think we need to remember that the we must impart on some level how live as a human, not an animal.

[Tort-Speed]

Just wondrin how many senseis teach the names for the hakama pleats these days (jin, gi, rei, chi,shin in front)?

[MartialArtsGirl]

I personally don't agree with the martial arts as moral development school. I practise martial arts to practise martial arts, I read and live to develop morally. That said, however, as long as a teachings are secular and it's not cutting into class time, I'd have no issues with a sensei attempting to spread a few pearls of wisdom around. I always lovea good discussion or debate on philosophy

As to your second point. No, not all clubs are like yours, in fact I consciously tend to avoid clubs focussing on the "spirituality of budo" side, nothing against them, it's just that the crowd they tend to attract and the crowd I enjoy training with generally don't mesh well.

What kind of people are attracted to the "spirituality of budo" side versus the competitive side?

Personally, I like both a lot. I orginally chose kendo, in part, because of the strong spirtuality aspect of it. But also cause its not like other spirtual martial arts that are slow and don't require lots of physical effort or sweat (for someone in decent shape and in their twenties). But I also have to admit, I love the shiai aspect of it too. Perhaps because I've had more success with that than grading, and perhaps also because... I just like it. In a way,shiai IS teaching me life lessons too...and spiritual lessons. For one, I like to ask myself, why do I perform so differently, and with such a completly different mindset in shiai then in regular training? Is that dicotomy similar in other areas of my life? (I think so). Why is it that when I am in a certain mindstate, I do better in kendo, compared to other times??

Things like that. And I will admit, I like the thrill and the not having to think too much (or as much as I normally think) is a plus. I love the whole idea of mushin.

Just wondrin how many senseis teach the names for the hakama pleats these days (jin, gi, rei, chi,shin in front)?

My sensei taught it to us once. He explains it to everyone who starts kendo at our dojo. I don't exactly remember it (heh...) but I really liked that he explained it. I like the fact that it has meaning to it.

(It makes the frustration of folding it that much easier. lol just kidding... sort of.)

[stealth_monkey]

What kind of people are attracted to the "spirituality of budo" side versus the competitive side?

I'm not entirely sure, it's just that in my own experiences, "sprituality of budo" goes hand in hand with overly formal, whereas I prefer less formal clubs. I prefer calling my instructor by his name, I prefer a handshake to a bow , I like to say "yes" rather than "osu" and when given a choice I tend to choose clubs that mesh well with this. I've also found that the less formalised the club, the less behind the scenes drama that tends to make practises less pleasant. Your mileage may vary of course

[rfoxmich]

It's hard for me to read this thread without thinking of Susan Sarandon's soliloquy at the opening of the movie Bull Durham... or of the tent revival meetings.
Can I have a Kiai?
Can I have an Amen!

Rev. R. Fox
Universal Life Church