"Preaching" in the dojo?

[hyuna]

why bring 'ethics' into it beyond 'sportsmanship' when there are well established other routes for moral training.

Sportsmanship is applied ethics. I think you are drawing a line where none exists.

As a self-selecting group of people, yes. They are attracted to physicality, to overwhelming others with violence, albeit in a sporting context, they are willing to endure physical hardship in order to perfect their violent abilities just like boxers and wrestlers et al., do. They don't sound like the people who live around me!

Are you sure? You're describing anyone who engages in serious pursuit of sport. Moreover, I am not sure if these aspects of physicality have any kind of different ethical standing than intellectualism. Academics are frequently attracted to overwhelming people with logic and rhetoric, albeit in an academic context. Do you mean to suggest that for some reason an emotional or intellectual bully is ethically superior to a physical one?

Are we that different from 'Battle Re-enactment' societies?

When I was a teenager, I dabbled in some of those battle re-enactment societies. I can say unequivocally that in large part we are that different. There are some people who pursue "battle re-enactment" as budo, but they are relatively rare.

Let me give you an example that I know a lot about. When a person decided they'd like to become a magistrate and so have the right to judge their peers and apply sometimes severe punitive penalties upon people who do not behave in the way deemed acceptable by our society, they must undergo strict, highly personal scrutiny by 'experts' in the field.

I don't want to quibble over your example, but I feel I should point out it doesn't apply. Judges' decisions have concrete and lasting direct effect on people, and those of yudansha, as a whole, do not.

You'll see that I previously did say that some Kendo teachers may well be educated, highly moral people who are more than able to give moral/ethical advice, but holding a Dan grade doesn't make this a 'given'.

Yes, but my point is that it is never a given. What is the appropriate criteria for teaching ethics? If you start by saying any kind of formal training, then you have already excluded the vast majority of parents. There is clearly something not right about that conclusion.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What is the appropriate criteria for teaching ethics? If you start by saying any kind of formal training, then you have already excluded the vast majority of parents.

Untrue. I learned how to parent from some people who had years of practical training - my own parents. Same way I learned how to play and teach kendo - from being taught by somebody else who learned by watching and doing.

[Kokoro777]

Having said all that, I'm not one for lecturing morals in the dojo. I believe the moral value in kendo comes from hard practice, from overcoming the mental barriers that prevent us from achieving our potential. If you don't think that has some direct value in real life, well then I have nothing further to say to you. If I serve as some sort of ideal to my students (hah!), I would prefer it be by example than by lecture.

I think you've knocked the (Zen) nail on the head there, Neil.

Who's KN Kim by the way?

I don't practise Kendo anymore because I disliked what the competitiveness of it did to people.

As soon as the targets of attack became limited to three, a curved blade became replaced by a straight one and many more changes to swordsmanship were applied, Kendo became a sport.

[Kokoro777]

I don't want to quibble over your example, but I feel I should point out it doesn't apply. Judges' decisions have concrete and lasting direct effect on people, and those of yudansha, as a whole, do not.

And a person of reverence, giving a child a moral perspective doesn't have potential moral implications that will effect the child for life? It could do-hopefully positively.

Yes, but my point is that it is never a given. What is the appropriate criteria for teaching ethics? If you start by saying any kind of formal training, then you have already excluded the vast majority of parents. There is clearly something not right about that conclusion.

Yes indeed, judging by the people I see in court, a significant majority of people shouldn't be allowed to have kids but we can't stop them!

[JSchmidt]

I think you've knocked the (Zen) nail on the head there, Neil.

Who's KN Kim by the way?

I don't practise Kendo anymore because I disliked what the competitiveness of it did to people.

As soon as the targets of attack became limited to three, a curved blade became replaced by a straight one and many more changes to swordsmanship were applied, Kendo became a sport.

How long did you practice kendo?

[hyuna]

Untrue. I learned how to parent from some people who had years of practical training - my own parents. Same way I learned how to play and teach kendo - from being taught by somebody else who learned by watching and doing.

I meant formal ethical training, with the emphasis on formal. Certainly everyone learns ethics from their parents, but I don't think it is generally performed in a structured way. But it was a strawman example, meant only to try to get a sense of what kind of qualification Kokoro777 is looking for as validating a person's qualification to teach ethics.

And a person of reverence, giving a child a moral perspective doesn't have potential moral implications that will effect the child for life? It could do-hopefully positively.

Of course yudansha can affect a child's moral perspective, but they have no special power or privilege, in general. Anyone who has a similar position of authority exerts the same influence. This includes teachers, coaches, clergy, nannies, other relatives, close family friends, and so on. mudansha friends of the child may have greater influence than an instructor. By comparison, a judge has power that is granted to them by the state to directly influence a person's life by depriving them of property, liberty, and, in some places, even life. These are completely different kinds of things and the kind of authority that a judge wields over people requires a different kind of scrutiny than "normal people."

[Kokoro777]

How long did you practice kendo?

Only two years of Kendo, but about 12 years of Karate before that. I was a member of an excellent Kendo dojo in Manchester where I was taken under the wing of the leader rather like a son. There was a contingent, however, that were very divisive, aggressive to the point of violence and the Dan-graded ring leaders were banned from the club because of their violence and heavy-handed approach toward kyu grades. However, they were still able to exert an influence over other members of the club. It was very strange.

The dojo leader is 80 now, still teaching and is NW regional coach, I believe- a kind, compassionate man who's quick to laugh.

[Kokoro777]

I meant formal ethical training, with the emphasis on formal. Certainly everyone learns ethics from their parents, but I don't think it is generally performed in a structured way. But it was a strawman example, meant only to try to get a sense of what kind of qualification Kokoro777 is looking for as validating a person's qualification to teach ethics.

I've really thought about this and I think its hard to know who is 'qualified' to pass on moral advice. The only conclusion I came to was that it requires a 'mature perspective' and some experience to realise if someone is worthy of listening to on ethical matters. We all meet people in our working/social lives who we think are decent people and we probably make a judgment as to the validity of their opinions of life the universe and everything. I'm fairly certain most kids wouldn't have the experience to know who to trust. That's part of what being a kid's all about after all and its this innocence that is sometimes taken advantage of.

[b8amack]

First of all, you seem to posit this idea that kids are basically blank slates, and whatever sort of moral teaching is imparted to them they are helpless to resist. I can say from years of teaching school children (of all ages) that this is so far from the truth that it would take the light from how things really are 16,000,137 years to hit this thread. Even basic ideas such as "sharing is a good thing" will be met with incredible resistance, when a kid doesn't agree with that idea. And I'm not just talking about elementary students, with that one.

Second, the dojo is not some unique vacuum. Teachings from there are only one of a myriad of rules/teachings/morals presented to kids daily, everywhere they go. If everything else in their world disagrees with whatever they are learning in the dojo, it will likely be discarded, or only applied in specific instances (ie: at the dojo). Kids are very capable of learning to apply (or to deliberately disobey) rules (and morals are just rules) selectively, from not farting at the dinner table to not cheating during a test.

And of course, most importantly; if I wait for perfection, I will praise no one. You have this absolute stringent bar to be met before someone can impart anything of moral value, but I wonder if you would apply that to yourself. How can you say that your judgement of who can or cannot impart morals is in any way relevant to anyone, much less more relevant than someone else's judgement? If you try to justify this with qualifications, you're on entirely the wrong track.

[annoraderenart@]

A few comments about the thread...

Kendo - the name itself implies the moral teachings. To not have the "do" part is to not have kendo. Then you would just have a sport. Those of us who lead the classes need to occasionally spell out how kendo applies to life. One does not need to be a Zen master to understand a few small aspects. When you crack open the door you sometimes see the light shine through from your kids.

I hear interesting things from some of the basketball coaches that use the same gym we do. Some of the coaches have a short pep talk at the end of practice. The kids garther around the coach and as he leads them to life lessons - study hard, no alcohol, no drugs, no tobacco.

I was a member of the SCA for about 15 years. We called those guys who do not develope any honor stick jocks. Stick jocks are usually technically proficient but you do not want them to come to your home. Then I found kendo...or did it find me? Regardless, it is what I am supposed to be doing and the SCA faded

[Kozushi]

I guess the thing to learn from this is that the people who take up a hobby involving swashbuckling swordfighting may not be the same people who appreciate classical literature, history and philosophy.

It is unfortunate that there aren't a lot of social outlets for people who enjoy these kinds of things. When they try to bring them into non-matching activities, like kendo for example, they lose a lot of the crowd.

[rfoxmich]

hmm. This thread is a tough one. In the end the question to me is do you teach by words or by example... noting that these options are not mutually exclusive.

What I prefer: If I can't walk the walk, I can't talk the talk. Working on myself, hopefully makes me a model that others want to emulate. That said, there are times when I do have to do some preaching, but that's most often one on one...and usually it's taking someone aside and saying look do you think it's right to xxxxx, and discussing what a better behavior might have been.


So where this relatively short ramble is leading: 'Preaching' in the dojo starts with us, what we believe, how we act on those beliefs, our own integrity within those beliefs, and a strong self-knowledge of those beliefs. Preaching without that as a basis is just hypocrisy, maybe a well intentioned hypocrisy but hypocrisy none the less [wow never thought I'd write a sentence with 3 occurrences of the word hypocrisy].

I have a step-son who is in basketball at the high school varsity level. Throughout his path there, some coaches have left ethics out of their teaching... some have put it in. The kids pretty quickly sense when a coach is preaching something he does not live (I remember the question.. why is coach telling us not to use drugs when everyone knows he likes to go home and smoke weed?). I don't want to say that all coaches have been like that. Many he's had have been great models and either just shown that or shown and preached. Those are the ones the kids (well mine anyway) have learned life lessons from.

So preach, don't preach.. depends on what you are comfortable doing.. just make sure you can apply the standards you preach to yourself or you will fool nobody.

[ben]

Bit of thread resurrection as I didn't believe this warranted it's own thread.

It seems Mr Kim is doing the rounds teaching in the US. Again. Apparently he is an old mate of Taro Ariga sensei, of e-bogu.com. I spent a while searching the net trying to work out the legal definition of "moral turpitude" and how it related to US visitors' visas, but it was taking too long and wasn't something I was interested in spending ages researching.

Dunno why this case worries me so. How would I, in Ariga's place, balance out friendship and the desire for my students to have top quality kendo experiences, with respect for this man's victims and even the potential for recidivism that might endanger my students? It's a tough call. But as a bystander I am shocked that the guy continues to have entree into reputable dojos.

b

[turboyoshi]

Thanks for the notice, ben. The man has demonstrated clearly that he is a danger to our students and I believe in cases like this that one's professional responsibility outweighs personal friendships. I certainly will not be buying from ebogu anymore and won't recommend them to anyone else.

[KawazoeTamaki]

I personally don't think a bit of preaching in dojo is a problem.
Of course there is a line there somewhere,
since most of us are not samurais who live by our swords; we have our own lives outside the dojo.
But there still are plenty of good things to be said.
I remember my sensei telling us after the practice,
"When you practice Kendo, you have to be always thinking how you can improve yourself.
If you follow this in Kendo, you will be improve much more quickly,
and if you follow this in your life, you will live a very good life."
How can anyone not appreciate words like this?