Western higher degree

[Raffa]

In Italy there are three non asian nanadan (at least one is kyoshi i think) and an hachidan that, while korean in origin, is married with an italian woman and lives in Milan from maybe 30+ years. Surprisingly enough he takes his grade training almost by himself, as at the time the kendo world in Italy was in a very early state. To think about it is indeed a great accomplishment...

[Kim Taylor]

The situation is tightening up for sensei from Japan, the idea from the FIK, as I gather it, is that if a sensei has no experience on grading panels in Japan they should not be sitting on panels overseas. There has to be a president to president letter requesting sensei sit on panels and much discussion and letters of request for permission from the sensei to the FIK. It's quite a problem if you don't have enough rank in your area to run gradings yourself but it can still be done.

The thing is I'm not sure there's actually a problem that needs to be addressed. I don't see any huge gaps opening up between western students graded by overseas Japanese sensei and students who grade in Japan. What I do foresee is an actual reduction in the number of gradings done overseas with Japanese sensei if the permissions keep tightening up, which would be the opposite effect of what is intended.

Kim.

[atgm]

I have actually decided that $1700 is unbelievable

Here's the fee list. Keep in mind that an easy way to guesstimate the cost in USD is to knock off the last two digits, since the USD is generally around 100 yen. 90 at the moment, though.

Registration Fees for Shogo and Dan
Hanshi 75,000 yen
Kyoushi 103,000 yen
Renshi 76,500 yen
8-dan 109,500 yen
7-dan 84,000 yen
6-dan 59,500 yen
5-dan 29,000 yen
4-dan 21,000 yen
3-dan 16,000 yen
2-dan 13,000 yen
1-dan 12,300 yen
1-kyuu 4,000 yen
Promotion 2,000 yen

Corner note:
Shinsa fee
ZNKR registration fee
Prefectural registration fee
Handling fees (prefecture/city)
Entrance fee
Training fee

So the registration fee alone for 8-dan is over 1000 USD. Plus the other various fees... and then if you're going for hanshi, over 750 USD. I can personally attest to the 1-dan fee, which was all paid at registration.

http://www.tenjou.net/dump/shinsa-fees.jpg

[Kim Taylor]

That's interesting, the CKF fees are all lower except for 4 and 5dan. I wonder if their lower relative fees are to keep folks in the system at that rank where one might be giving up just after University.

We really have to change to registration fee instead of certificate fee, I get so tired of people asking me if they can just pay the testing fee and not the certificate fee if they don't want a certificate.

Kim.

[atgm]

I also wonder if a lot of higher-ranked people seem to have "high-class" jobs because of those fees. Selection.

[MartialArtsGirl]

I also wonder if a lot of higher-ranked people seem to have "high-class" jobs because of those fees. Selection.

Wouldn't that be kind of unfair?
Not that life is ever fair, mind you. But I think the "high class" job thing is probably especially true for those kendoka in the western hemisphere...airfare, hotel stays, or etc has to add up.

I wonder what the reasoning is behind the high test fees?

[atgm]

I wonder what the reasoning is behind the high test fees?

Pay for the venue, supplies needed, transportation/allowance for the judges, menjo, then I guess the rest goes into the federation.

[b8amack]

You'd spend a lot more per year on smokes or beer...

[Big One]

And the fee is to pay for the top Sake too. those Hanshi only drink top sake

[MartialArtsGirl]

But (in theory) wouldn't their be less people attending the higher rank testings compared to the lower rank testings? (Because people will often drop out before they get to the top?) And if thats the case, won't the venue need to be smaller (or fewer)? Maybe the transportation/allowances for the judges could be more, though, because there are less hachidan right, so if the closest hachidan is out in timbuck two, the airline filghts would cost more. But I'd think that everything else (like cost to produce the menjo) would be equal or less, because less people are testing right? Or, is my reasoning in this somehow off?

Actually, I was thinking, could it be a sort of "if you are really serious about this" kind of test? As in, it shows how serious you are about it or something? But still that doesnt work out very well for the millionarires, since they dont have to go crazy saving for it, and it means that poor people have to be that much more "serious" or determined...(and save) and they will still have less of a chance to test as often.

[atgm]

Not really. Rank testings are usually grouped together, but for the higher-ranked ones, they only happen a few times a year (twice a year, I believe) in Tokyo and Kyoto, so EVERYONE who wants to test has to go.

[ben]

The ZNKR delegation they send to the European Championships and the FIK European Zone refereeing seminar still examines up to 7th dan.

That's interesting. Is that for the next championships, or previous ones? The change I'm talking about it recent, i.e. this year. Also, the Asian Zone Shinpan Seminars have never had anything more than godogeiko attached. Perhaps as a result of the extra distance needed to travel from Europe, the ZNKR is still supporting high level gradings there. b

[D'Artagnan]

With regard to the cost of the venue, I may be wrong on this, but at the Kyoto 8th Dan grading the exam is held at the Kyoto Budo Center - which I understand to be the headquarters of the Kyoto Kendo Renmei. I expect the 'hosting costs' of this are reletively low. However, I do not know for sure.

I expect the majority of the money goes to the AJKF, which uses the money to further cultivate the practice of Kendo, so in my mind it is money well spent.

[atgm]

Hmm, a lot of the public venues here that you can rent for kendo charge by the half-hour for lighting, then again for heat or a/c, with special (more expensive) rates for different rooms. I assumed that was what the Kyoto Budokan would be like too.

[D'Artagnan]

Oh I am sure there is a fee for them to pay at the Budo center, but I have the impression it is relitively small. As the renmei is always hosting practices in the main Taiikukan, including regular practice every tuesday (which costs 200 yen per person).

I am sure that if you or I wanted to hire our the main hall or the Butokuden or whatever, we would be charged in the way you describe. But as the place is 'rented' by the ZNKR for the hosting of a grading, then I have a feeling it works differently. It certainly doesn't cost that much to participate in Shiai that are held at that venue.

Like I said, I really don't know anything about it, but I have the impression that the registration fees go mainly to the association. But again, I don't know.