Whistling Blades!

[Kokoro777]

Your comments [above] imply;-
Your Ochiburi 'travel' is greater than when you cut kirioroshi. (Interesting)
Second point seems to suggest that you accelerate more through your ochiburi than when cutting. (Interesting)

You're scaring me with your 'interestings'! It could be that the muscles involved in ochiburi are stonger or more are involved thus creating greater acceleration over the distance of travel and producing tachikaze. I wondered if the constantly changing 'angle of incidence' of the ochiburi blade during the movement was accounting for tachikaze-or should it be a constant 90 degree angle to the direction of travel too? The more air that is disturbed the greater the opportunity for noise. Look at a Barn owl's wing-it slices very cleanly through the air to the extent that I've had one swoop past my head in my garden noiselessly, scaring the pee out of me and any would-be prey no doubt, whereas a pigeon you can hear from a mile off. I'm rambling...

Last point; the [tip of the] sword/blade should not drop below horizontal at furikaburi/beginning of kirioroshi. (Correct)

Phew!

[Kokoro777]

Sounds like a stiff inflexible left wrist to me.

That's interesting. Would you elaborate please (remembering I'm inexperienced!)?

[Peter West]

That's interesting. Would you elaborate please (remembering I'm inexperienced!)?

I was continuing on from Bills "interestings"
As you perhaps know, the sword should be held with the little finger (pinkie in US English) and the next finger. The middle finger, forefinger and thumb should only have light contact with the tsuka and be relaxed.
If you have too much tension in your middle finger it makes the wrist stiff and inflexible. It doesn't necessarily mean the middle finger is gripping tight, it only needs to be tense to have this effect. If this is what is happening (I don't know that it is without watching you, but it is a common error) then the kissaki can't fly naturally at the end of the circle from your shoulder to the sword. If This grip is soft then the kissaki will fly faster and not be so easily forced off line aerodynamically (hasuji).

The problem that we all face is that in modern Zen Ken Ren Iaido, in katas 1,2 and 11, the kissaki should not fall below horizontal in kaburi. Fear of this error tends to cause people to grip too tightly and hence loose flexibility in the cut.

This may not be what you are doing, so please take care not to loosen your grip too much and lose control altogether.

[Kokoro777]

Thanks Peter. i'm so excited about training tonight to try all these ideas!

[chidokan]

the BIG giveaway is the shoulder blades... stand in chudan with shoulders back and just use the little fingers to hold the tsuka. Now grip with all your fingers as hard as you can. Note effect on your shoulders... Now do a cut and see where your shoulders are...

[ShadowRaven]

the BIG giveaway is the shoulder blades... stand in chudan with shoulders back and just use the little fingers to hold the tsuka. Now grip with all your fingers as hard as you can. Note effect on your shoulders... Now do a cut and see where your shoulders are...

A very useful bit of information, I am always trying to figure out how to keep my grip proper while focusing on other things. A way for my body to tell me will hopefully help

[Kokoro777]

It seem I've been 'chopping' with my sword in rather a 'stiff' way. It was suggested that I need to cut with the feeling of 'casting a fly' from a fishing rod into the distance . The 'whipping action' produced a satisfying tachikaze (thank you Mike Simpson Sensei!). I also noted that what seems to happen when others are doing this is is the point of rotation shifts during the movement: initially the point of rotation is about the shoulder joint and as the tsuka gets to about the level of ones face, the point of rotation shifts to the centre of the tsuka producing a very high tip velocity. This seemed to me to be a very 'kendo' way of cutting with a straight shinai and so I was avoiding it, but it is what those who I observed were doing so I'll adopt it.

What do you all think?

[Peter West]

I think you've got to the point where explanation is not going to help and can be ambiguous. What you describe could be right or completely wrong depending how the words are interpreted. You need now to watch your sensei carefully and try and copy shape and timing.

[jakku-san]

It seem I've been 'chopping' with my sword in rather a 'stiff' way. It was suggested that I need to cut with the feeling of 'casting a fly' from a fishing rod into the distance . The 'whipping action' produced a satisfying tachikaze (thank you Mike Simpson Sensei!). I also noted that what seems to happen when others are doing this is is the point of rotation shifts during the movement: initially the point of rotation is about the shoulder joint and as the tsuka gets to about the level of ones face, the point of rotation shifts to the centre of the tsuka producing a very high tip velocity. This seemed to me to be a very 'kendo' way of cutting with a straight shinai and so I was avoiding it, but it is what those who I observed were doing so I'll adopt it.

What do you all think?

the only problem i found when people were told the fly casting method is people literally tried to fly fish, and the kissaki never changed position once, or it went tp ot past the poition of the kasso teki's head. This also over extended elbows and pain was felt with some unhappy faces...
the way i practice is hold the bokken or iaitou with just the left hand with a proper grip, but release the fore and middle finger. Slowly cut from furikaburi and you will feel the weight of the sword change which aids the natural acceleration of the kissaki, rather than forcing it forward with the right hand in a fly fishing motion.

I think West sensei's point about watch your teacher is the best advice, as each ryuu ha and each lineage has a different way of cutting, and understand the principles differently.
I mean i once trained in a dojo and come christmas they done tameshigiri. I found it quite funny(not disrespectful, just odd) that although they assured me their way of cutting was correct and mine wasn't as effective in their lineage, when it cam to tameshigiri they used a completely different cut, which was alot closer to mine.

Just some food for thought

[Kim Taylor]

There are two general shapes of cut in the iaido world, one is a very round, tip up high, sweeping the ceiling kind of shape that I teach and I suspect many people in the west also teach. Then there is a more flat, "kendo-like" shape which has the tip moving much more directly to the target. The best exponent of this shape that I've seen is Itoh sensei from the Tokyo Keishicho.

In neither case do you have a whipping motion where the shoulders start first and then you whip from the wrists. This will give you lots of tip speed and lots of whoosh but it won't give you the correct shape to be able to drop your weight into the tip as it bites into the target.

This is rather high-level stuff as regards the shape of the cut, I'm with Peter, just go watch and do. My advice is to relax, make the noise and listen carefully when your sensei corrects your cut.

Kim.

[Kokoro777]

I do my best to emulate my instructor's form-his movements are very beautiful. Sometimes you just need a word or an analogy tha makes things 'click' which is what prompted this thread. I am, indeed learning such a lot, for which I'm grateful.

Do you think I should dust off my suburi bokken?

[Kim Taylor]

Suburi bokken may not help much, it can make the grip tighter. Often when someone has a death grip it's useful to give them a saya bokuto which weighs nothing at all, no weight means no grip to make it stop, no massive grip to swing it hard to make it whistle etc. etc.

You work to make the light ones look heavy and the heavy ones to look light.

Kim.

[chidokan]

AAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!! as a fly fisherman I can GUARANTEE it has NOTHING TO DO WITH IAI... hahahaha!!! (There is a useful side effect for the practise of metsuke, but that is a different matter...)
Kim and Peter have it bang on above, I even use a single sheet of a large newspaper rolled up to prove the point... if it bends when you 'cut'... no good.

[Kokoro777]

I had a good idea its not like actual fly fishing (since my instructor and I have never fished before!) which is why I said 'with the feeling of fly fishing'! Sorry if the analogy annoyed you. I think a more universal analogy is trying to flick-off a piece of gum that's stuck to ones monuchi!

[Peter West]

Question for Kokoro777 only: When you begin cutting, from the highest point of kaburi, which moves first (the very first fraction of a second of the movement): does the kashira move forward (and maybe down) with the kissaki following behind, or does the kissaki go up?