Whistling Blades!

**David G** · 23rd February 2010, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Kokoro777

Yes that's a good point! I produce tachikaze in shihogiri, morote tsuki et al. all of which involve turning. Perhaps the power in the turn in contributing to the power of the cut.

I don't think it's "more power" necessarily, although someone like Peter West will have a better idea.

I think it is because the cut is more "relaxed" as the concentration is in the turn NOT the cut. We have been working this weekend on lowering our point of concentration/effort and relaxing the shoulders/arms.

I am pretty sure it was Peter West who said: accurate feet, firm hara, relaxed shoulders/arms (or something very similar!!).

David

**Peter West** · 23rd February 2010, 05:47 AM

without seeing it is impossible to say what a specific person's specific problem is. One can only speak generally on a forum like this. You could well be right. Leading on from that it could be that dealing with the mechanics of the turn leads to gaining a solid base before cutting. It could also be that turning causes the left hip to be more forward whereas in straight suburi the left hip might be weak. there are too many variables to diagnose.

**chidokan** · 23rd February 2010, 05:59 AM

I bet he turns too quick and rushes it, thus not giving time to get everything sorted out for a proper cut... at which point I get to use my favourite shout.... "SLOW DOWN!!!"
Consider the amount of stuff you are trying to do over this move, work out how long each bit takes, and total it up. I will guarantee that most people will charge through it and miss a lot out..

**Andy_Watson** · 23rd February 2010, 06:26 PM

Linking this to "Through the Looking Glass" discussion, I'll bet it's to do with preparation that mae/ushiro/ukenagashi/tsukaate don't work but the others do!

With the exception of ganmenate, all the turny ones cut, on the whole, with both hands on the sword. You are giving yourselft the opportunity (although likely an unconscious one) to get the balance of grip correct on both hands. During a bit of turning, stepping and lifting the hands are naturally adjusting themselves into the right position.

Contrast this with the other kata. You are going from a one handed cut, deflection or thrust (none of which will likely have the same grip for kiritsuke) and going through a fairly complex kaburi movement and you are suddenly joining the left hand and cutting. It's possible that you don't have time (or the ability) to change the grip with the right hand and the left hand is doing stuff to compensate - likely result = twisted sword!

Junbi, junbi, junbi

Effort - Preparation = Busy'ness = Bad Technique

(Effort x 50% + Preparation) x Concentration = Good Technique

(Flour + Water + Butter + Orange Juice + Petrol + Soap Shavings) x Preparation = Napalm Pie

**still learning** · 23rd February 2010, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Watson

(Flour + Water + Butter + Orange Juice + Petrol + Soap Shavings) x Preparation = Napalm Pie

Correct recipe [although some quantities/weights/volumes would be helpful...]

Please remember; If you are presenting this to someone for a celebration..... retire quickly after lighting the candle[s]

**David G** · 23rd February 2010, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Watson

(Flour + Water + Butter + Orange Juice + Petrol + Soap Shavings) x Preparation = Napalm Pie

Wont let me spread rep . . almost spat my tea out!

**jakku-san** · 23rd February 2010, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by still learning

Correct recipe [although some quantities/weights/volumes would be helpful...]

Please remember; If you are presenting this to someone for a celebration..... retire quickly after lighting the candle[s]

and the housemate wondered why a pane of bullet-proof glass appeared on one side of the table.... at least i get the tv

**David G** · 23rd February 2010, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Watson

It's possible that you don't have time (or the ability) to change the grip with the right hand and the left hand is doing stuff to compensate - likely result = twisted sword!

The ones where I should be having problems getting tachikaze I don't (usually), suburi and sougiri where I should have plenty of time to prepare I don't usually get tachikaze!! With me I am simply trying too hard (mostly!!) grip/shoulders etc.

There are a couple of other things, but that's the main cause.

SENSEI
SAY
RELAX

**Peter West** · 23rd February 2010, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by David G

The ones where I should be having problems getting tachikaze I don't (usually), suburi and sougiri where I should have plenty of time to prepare I don't usually get tachikaze!! With me I am simply trying too hard (mostly!!) grip/shoulders etc.

There are a couple of other things, but that's the main cause.

SENSEI
SAY
RELAX

One of my students recently asked me what has to be relaxed and when. The only sufficient answer I could come up with was "everything, always"

Not quite true of course, but certainly everything above the waist except the 4 fingers needed for cutting should never tighten.

**Kokoro777** · 23rd February 2010, 10:50 PM

Do you think that doing suburi practise might help? Should Iaidoka be doing suburi with a suburi bokken perhaps?

**Andy_Watson** · 23rd February 2010, 11:58 PM

Anil

This has definately been discussed, it's worth doing a search for that very discussion.

When we had it, the general opinion was yes except for muggins here who said no/yes/sometimes/not yet.

Hang on I'll try to find some links which contribute to that discussion...

**Peter West** · 24th February 2010, 12:24 AM

Obviously follow the threads Andy finds. In my opinion suburi has advantages and dangers. Traditional thought and training centred around doing a lot of suburi because, having come to sword training relatively later in life, it is not natural to swing a sword. I mean relatively late in life compared to grabbing something or standing up or walking which we learn before we have the notions of conceptual analysis and reasoning (perhaps). Therefore to make cutting as natural as walking we have to do a lot of it. However, when our technique is not good we can injure ourselves (RSI), and being older, and analysing and reasoning, we tend to reason that carrying on is better than stopping. Watch a child who has just learned to walk. When they've had enough they stop. When we've had enough suburi we tend to push just another 100 as if there were some virtue in RSI.

So the problem is to balance getting enough with not doing too much, and at the same time learning to do it correctly and making the movement natural. Little and often until your technique improves enough not to get injured. See how many people have elbow trouble from doing too much O chiburi before their technique is strong enough to support the level of training they are doing trying to get it right. It is a minefield, but once you come out the other side unscathed, it is one that is worth entering.

**Andy_Watson** · 24th February 2010, 12:27 AM

Dammit! Can't find the thread.

Anyway it was a good one, it saw me going off on a rant about RSI etc. My basis for the muddle of things that I splurged out was that I believe that suburi practice should be done extremely carefully with a great attention to detail and be taught by and monitored a highly experienced teacher. Instead it gets used as a "warm up" despite it being balistic in many parts of the body.

Peter West argued that he got a lot out of suburi. I argued back that the reason for this was that he was a 7th dan and the majority of iaido practitioners are not and thus do not get out of it what they should (i.e. they get hot, sweaty and funny tingling sensations in their tendons and joints). At 5th dan and training for my 6th, only now am I starting to understand...

- How to do ken suburi
- Why we do ken suburi
- What we should be getting out of it
- What we should put into it

Even with this knowledge it should be observed and critiqued as sharply, if not more so, as kata. Throcking a nukitsuke and an ochiburi will bring on injuries like nobodies business and produces very little benefit.

IMHO

**Peter West** · 24th February 2010, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Kokoro777

Do you think that doing suburi practise might help? Should Iaidoka be doing suburi with a suburi bokken perhaps?

Better than a suburi bokken I think is a normal bokken held the wrong way round. The weight of the Tsuka helps to make the cuts big and helps correct timing of shibori without the stress of the weight of a suburi bokken. As in my earlier thread, I'd recommend a suburi bokken only when you are strong enough (technically proficient enough, that is) to use it without injury.