Whistling Blades!

[Wraith]

Dammit! Can't find the thread.

Don't worry, it is here: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...p/21141-Suburi

[ender84567]

Instead it gets used as a "warm up" d

in my limited experience with life, kendo and sports; warmup is always a misnomer and cover for practice.

[Oroshi]

I've found doing katate suburi with an iaito (by which I mean suburi with only the left hand on the tsuka) has helped my cutting improve quite a lot. I don't do this as a vigorous exercise but more as a study of how I'm using my body when cutting, particularly my left hand, back and shoulders. What do other people think of this?

[ender84567]

Its interesting that the suburi question has come up, as a kendoka I have been pondering as of late if purchasing a cheap iaito to do suburi with would be beneficial. For one it is almost 2x the weight of a shinai, so would have a similar benefit as using a suburi bokken, and then there is the feedback you would get from tachikaze, and having the wind resistance if the cut wasnt straight.

[Kokoro777]

I don't I've learned so much in years-its fantastic! I think I'll probably continue practising Iai under my instructor and leave the strength training to the gym. Injury is something I want to avoid at all costs!

[Andy_Watson]

Andy, one of these perhaps?

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...ghlight=suburi
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...ghlight=suburi
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...ghlight=suburi

You're a star for finding these (and they all have some relevance to this conversation) but alas none of them is the one I was thinking of. It's so frustrating that I can't find it. It was something like a poll or an open question that started it off asking how much suburi practice do you do....

But all these threads are relevant and interesting.

[Andy_Watson]

Don't worry, it is here: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...p/21141-Suburi

Yay! Well done Wraith!!!

This is the one!

Perhaps best read before we go off and start another rant about suburi...

[hl1978]

Its interesting that the suburi question has come up, as a kendoka I have been pondering as of late if purchasing a cheap iaito to do suburi with would be beneficial. For one it is almost 2x the weight of a shinai, so would have a similar benefit as using a suburi bokken, and then there is the feedback you would get from tachikaze, and having the wind resistance if the cut wasnt straight.

If you just want the extra weight you can pick up a shinai weight. They're adjustable so you can load your shinai and make it tip heavy or bring it back towards the tsuba so that the shinai is balanced.

http://www.e-bogu.com/Suburiko_p/hir...-suburiko-.htm

You might want to occasionly make it top heavy just to see how it effects your balance/upper body as it will accentuate any problems with your swing.

If you want an iaito just for weight or for tachikaze, a cheaper alternative would be a grooved bokken. I might sound like a spokesman for e-bogu; they sell one that weighs roughly the same as an iaito, but i have no idea how well it works or if it is well balanced.

[ender84567]

I have a shinai weight and I think they are poor training tools, and will likely lead to injury since the weight is all on the end of the shinai, using something with distributed weight feels less ballistic, but should give the same level of workout.. As for the grooved bokken, they weight the same as a regular bokken, and the advantage of the iaito that I can see is that since its a thin piece of metal if the hasuji is off i can see that pulling your cut one way or the other, or at least thats how I envision it would work, giving mechanical feedback on your cut as well. Saving money isint really the point, its just an idea i've been rolling around and will probably try eventually, perhaps popping for a kata-yo so it could be used for demonstrations as well as just suburi.

[Andy_Watson]

I have a shinai weight and I think they are poor training tools, and will likely lead to injury since the weight is all on the end of the shinai, using something with distributed weight feels less ballistic, but should give the same level of workout.. As for the grooved bokken, they weight the same as a regular bokken, and the advantage of the iaito that I can see is that since its a thin piece of metal if the hasuji is off i can see that pulling your cut one way or the other, or at least thats how I envision it would work, giving mechanical feedback on your cut as well. Saving money isint really the point, its just an idea i've been rolling around and will probably try eventually, perhaps popping for a kata-yo so it could be used for demonstrations as well as just suburi.

Exactly! Unevenly placing a weight at different places of the shinai creates a rotational moment in the handle which 9 times out of 10 will be completely different to the rotational moment of a sword, heavy or light. You are more likely to damage yourself this way and even if you don't it will develop muscles and muscle memory not in the right proportions for good cutting.

I have found that slow gentle weight training is good building up a bit of muscle and protecting the less elastic tissues from damage and inflamation but I don't pretend to be cutting when using weights.

[ender84567]

Exactly! Unevenly placing a weight at different places of the shinai creates a rotational moment in the handle which 9 times out of 10 will be completely different to the rotational moment of a sword, heavy or light. You are more likely to damage yourself this way and even if you don't it will develop muscles and muscle memory not in the right proportions for good cutting.

I have found that slow gentle weight training is good building up a bit of muscle and protecting the less elastic tissues from damage and inflamation but I don't pretend to be cutting when using weights.

Certainly agree with this, during the period where I was using the suburi-ko I found all it did was re-enforce bad habits. I have a fairly heavy bokken (I've had a few sensei comment that its too heavy for kata, but I like it that way) And if I want a good suburi workout i'll use that. I also find suburi shinai vs something heavier with a shinai I feel it in my shoulders, with something heavier I feel it all in the undersides of my forearms, which I actually take as a good sign....

[hoonyistyle]

Its interesting that the suburi question has come up, as a kendoka I have been pondering as of late if purchasing a cheap iaito to do suburi with would be beneficial. For one it is almost 2x the weight of a shinai, so would have a similar benefit as using a suburi bokken, and then there is the feedback you would get from tachikaze, and having the wind resistance if the cut wasnt straight.

I've found that by focusing on my tenouchi, the tachikaze can be created with the regular bokuto or shinai.
And of course with incorrect hasuji, you won't get the tachikaze.

[ender84567]

Agree with bokuto on that, but with shinai i've found it depends on which shinai, there are some where I can get a reliable whistle, others where they just whoosh.

[hl1978]

I have a shinai weight and I think they are poor training tools, and will likely lead to injury since the weight is all on the end of the shinai, using something with distributed weight feels less ballistic, but should give the same level of workout.. As for the grooved bokken, they weight the same as a regular bokken, and the advantage of the iaito that I can see is that since its a thin piece of metal if the hasuji is off i can see that pulling your cut one way or the other, or at least thats how I envision it would work, giving mechanical feedback on your cut as well. Saving money isint really the point, its just an idea i've been rolling around and will probably try eventually, perhaps popping for a kata-yo so it could be used for demonstrations as well as just suburi.

I would disagree with regards to weight on the end of the shinai as being a poor training tool. This assumes of course that you are interested in how to move the weight of the sword to be supported by the core/legs and how the swing effects your posture. If you are just looking for soley muscular development, then I would agree that there may in fact be better options out there.

I personally use a tanren bo and occasionally a piece of rebar to slowly preform one and two handed suburi, not to build up bigger muscles, but to study how the weight effects my own body and to figure out how to stop my swing one handed with the back muscles and core instead of only the hands. I find that using a heavier implement shows were exaclty your swing is less than optimal and where your body is not stable through the swing.

I also find suburi shinai vs something heavier with a shinai I feel it in my shoulders, with something heavier I feel it all in the undersides of my forearms, which I actually take as a good sign....

I would try figure out how to get it so you minimize the feeling of weight in your shoulders or arms at all. If you feel the weight in your shoulders try dropping your shoulders so they sit lower in the socket, if they're raised the shoulder works in isolation from the body to bear the weight.

[Peter West]

I am coming to the conclusion that useful suburi is like a good diet: little and often, and as varied as possible. Pigging out makes you ill, not eating makes you ill, eating only one thing or junk makes you ill.