Should we pluralize Japanese words as they become part of the English language?

[pgsmith]

In that case I hope you don't say 'cannons', 'stadiums' , 'corpus cavernosums' or use phrases such as 'think different' (incorrect adjective rather than the correct adverbial 'differently')!

I am NOT an English major, so I've no idea what the proper usage of those words is. For that matter, I don't speak Latin and I'm (thankfully) not a lawyer, so I would have no occasion to use ANY word that incorporates "corpus" in it. Didn't you bother to read what I wrote, or did you simply see what you wanted to? All that I said was that if you know what is right, then that is what you should do. Apparently that was too much for you to follow? Sorry, don't know how to simplify it any more for you, so you'll just have to try and puzzle it out for yourself.

[pgsmith]

There isn't one right answer yet. The words are Japanese, yes, but as they become English words, they will be adapted. How they are adapted is still to be determined.

Your key phrase in there is "The words are Japanese". Being involved in the Japanese sword arts should have taught you by now that Japanese words are not pluralized. Seems to me to be pretty much cut and dried. Of course, that is just my opinion, and nobody is required to share it. However, you asked for opinions, and that one is mine.

[verissimus]

Well in a few years, that statement may well be modified to "The words are of Japanese origin", in which case, standard English rules of grammar (or lack, thereof) would apply...

[Koban]

What does it mean? I always thought it had two meanings... something like, what you get when you score a point, and also "death" or something like that.



There isn't one right answer yet. The words are Japanese, yes, but as they become English words, they will be adapted. How they are adapted is still to be determined.

Also, although there is a more "correct" way of doing things in writing and as far as punctuation, grammar in particular is more fluid in language. I'm sure that most people, though, would consider "You all" to be incorrect English. However, technically it is not incorrect English but rather NON-STANDARD English. The difference is that to some groups of people "you all" is the correct way to talk. It is used and it is proper (i.e. ok) to use it. How do you think languages develop and change over time? Languages are not static, dead things.

That being said, "standard English" is the generally "accepted" English, at least in formal occasions and among certain dialects. That doesn't make other dialects any more or less correct. In fact, standard English (or the standard dialect in any language) is usually the dialect used by the upper class or the well off class. So it's often not officially decided in the way you think (French being once exception to this).

Furthermore, there is a certain phenomenon in language were words are adapted from one language into another. This happens all the time. It's easy to list words that are currently without a doubt English, but that once originated from other languages in the same way as the new Japanese words in our vocabulary. The interesting thing about kendo words is that, they are even newer compared to words like sushi or karate. This essentially means that, as kendo grows in the U.S. and the English speaking world, those of us who practice kendo and use these words now will help determine the proper usage of these words for the future. The question of whether or not it is plural is not yet decided; Just because they were originally Japanese words and originally could not be pluralized does not mean that as they are adapted into English that won't change (or that that adaption can't change). Once they are adapted, (which is slowly happening now) they will no longer be Japanese but English words. Thus, as English speakers, we decide how to use it in our own language.

That being said, it seems that the general consensus is to not pluralize Japanese originating words. I actually think that pluralizing bogu (to bogus) just doesn't sound right, so I do agree to a certain extent with this not pluralization of the words(not counting words like Sensei or ippon which I tend to pluralize); Since the trend is moving away from pluralizing, I'm going to make a prediction that the words might be incorporated into English in a non-plural form like latin words. We shall see what happens.

P.S. One interesting way to check if certain words are fully adapted into English or not is if they are in word spell checkers. For example, tsunami, sushi, kindergarten, and zen are all recognized by the spell checker. Sensei, ippon, bogu and shinai are not.

In my opinion, adaption into the English language doesn't mean that the word in question is no longer a Japanese word. "Carryokey" is normal pronouciation of "Karaoke" over here, but that doesn't mean "Karaoke" is an English word and not a Japanese word because non-Japanese know what it is. Just as "Karate" is not and English word.

I fully agree with pgsmith, if you know it, you have no excuse not to use the correct term. I never pluralise Japanese words. But I am trying to figure out how to use tsuki in a proper sentence! I know "tsuki-ed" is wrong, but saying "someone performed tsuki on me" sounds even more wrong...!

Another one is how do you say "Did you see Matsumoto sensei(s) new shinai?" I have been tempted to say sensei's I must admit.

[MartialArtsGirl]

That's what I said. Japanese origin.

And I obviously know that Japanese words are not pluralized. But when you say "I went to keiko and saw my Sensei today", are you speaking English or Japanese?

You could say that its English with Japanese words, and when we use language like that (a foreign word embedded into the grammatical structure and sentence of a language) this is called codemixing or loan borrowing. The two are on a continum. And actually, Japanese has a lot of loan borrowing in it's language too. I'm just opening my dictionary, and I get: suutsu keesu (suit case), rentakaa (rental car), Kamera (camera), biza (visa) and on and on.

You can bet that these words will follow the Japanese grammatical system when used in the Japanese language. Why? Because they are Japanese words; They were adapted (via loan borrowing) into the Japanese language. These words were originally English in origin, yet not only were they adapted, they now follow Japanese grammatical rules. So I doubt you will see the Japanese saying "rentakaas" or "bizas" or suutsu keesus" even though those words were originally English. However pg, by your logic, it should be done since they are technically, originally English words. However we know that doing that would be silly.

It took some time for these words to be adapted into the language, and I think it will be the same way with any new words that come into the English language from Japan. But every language does it, and every language adapts its words to its own needs.

Eventually, more Japanese words (like the ones we use in Kendo) will be adapted into the English language as well, and when that happens we will adapt them grammatically. However, English has borrowed from so many different languages, so there are actually some grammatical rules that allows some words to never pluralize. Hence, the question remains, since we are in the transition phase (of adapting certain kendo Japanese words) which grammatical style will these words adapt?

[pgsmith]

I know "tsuki-ed" is wrong, but saying "someone performed tsuki on me" sounds even more wrong...!

" He stabbed me!"

However pg, by your logic, it should be done since they are technically, originally English words.

No, by my logic, I am saying that I would do it because I know it is right, and doing the right thing matters to me. I never said anything about any Japanese doing anything similar. In fact, I specifically stated that anyone else is free to do whatever they want.

[Koban]

Well yes Japanese people do borrow alot of English words, but they don't view them as Japanese. I see your point though. The reason they use English word like that is pretty simply because it's trendy. In Japanese "biza" is just a simple way of saying something that everyone knows. In Japanese its "旅券査証" (roukensashou) or "査証" (sashou). Likewise with alot of other loan words. It's interesting. Also Japanese people think advertising and signs and things are alot more attractive written with hiragana rather than kanji. I've never seen "写真機" (shashinki - which is Japanese for camera) outside of a camera shop in Japan.


I wish there was a reason for the way practically all Japanese pop music has random English words thrown in the lyrics.


For what it's worth, I know that I shouldn't pluralise Japanese words, but I'm not gonna grill people that don't know! But in kendo and other martial arts, one of my pet peeves is "sensei ***". That and "ippons". Mainly because "ippon" means "one point".

[Neil Gendzwill]

FWIW I know quite a few Japanese people who pluralize Japanese words when speaking English. I don't presume to correct all those senseis ...

[turboyoshi]

How do you use words like ippon or Sensei? Do you pluralize them or not?

What I think is interesting about asking this is that, in truth there is no one "right" answer to this question.

There is a correct answer, and the answer is since it's a japanese word, you use japanese rules. Sensei, for example, can be plural or singular depending on context. You don't use english rules unless you're using english terms.

edit: ooh just saw Neil's post and yeah, I wouldn't bother correcting them. I'd still think it's incorrect though.

[rfoxmich]

Man in Japanese restaurant:
I'll order the sushis

_sigh_

[pgsmith]

I agree completely with Neil. In fact, I'm not going to tell anyone how they should use the English language. However, that doesn't change how I'm going to use it.

[Kokoro777]

For that matter, I don't speak Latin and I'm (thankfully) not a lawyer, so I would have no occasion to use ANY word that incorporates "corpus" in it.

The corpus cavenosum is the erectile tissue in the penis-nothing much to do with law, although I hear lots of people saying lawyers are d**ks! As a student, I added an 's' to the end of corpus cavenosum and was chastised by my classically-trained physiology tutor to say corpora canevosae! I've never heard anyone say the correct form since but we all know what the former, with an 's' means.

In all honesty it doesn't really matter-tsuki-ed, Senseis, bogus etc...we all know what the speaker means and language is about getting meaning across so the mission is accomplished. Correcting 'cannons' to 'cannon' is about suggesting educational superiority

[yoda-waza]

There is a plurality of thoughts on plurality in language. I think it's all about the context. Japanese sensei may pluralize Japanese words when speaking in English because they know that is the convention of plurality in that language and they may be better understood. I might similarly pluralize a Japanese word to a non-Japanese listener who may understand better if I do. I wouldn't do so with others that are familiar, if not fluent, with Japanese terms. I'm not fluent in Japanese but I try to use pronunciation and/or grammar appropriate to the context. I would pronounce "karaoke" differently in a Japanese lounge than I would in a country western lounge. I might say "bohgooze" at first to someone unfamiliar with kendo (I'm more likely, though, to say "sets of bogu", "ippon scores", etc.) Once it is explained that Japanese nouns are the same whether singular or plural, as some in English are, most people get it. The same with the convention of saying "sensei", or other title, following a person's name instead of preceding it.

[atgm]

Kokoro: Hate to break it to you, but your classically-trained physiology tutor didn't know Latin too well if that's what he told you to say.

[pgsmith]

Correcting 'cannons' to 'cannon' is about suggesting educational superiority

That may be true. However, using 'cannons' when you know that 'cannon' is correct, is about doing what you know is wrong to better fit in with your peers, and I'm not much for compromises of that sort.