Should we pluralize Japanese words as they become part of the English language?

[JByrd]

That may be true. However, using 'cannons' when you know that 'cannon' is correct, is about doing what you know is wrong to better fit in with your peers, and I'm not much for compromises of that sort.

Yes, it's the kind of nonsense up with which we should not put.

[MartialArtsGirl]

" He stabbed me!"



No, by my logic, I am saying that I would do it because I know it is right, and doing the right thing matters to me. I never said anything about any Japanese doing anything similar. In fact, I specifically stated that anyone else is free to do whatever they want.

The point I was trying to make, and can't seem to get across, is, that once a word is used in the English language, it becomes an English word and NOT a Japanese word. Although that's not 100% the case now, the process of adaption is happening. In other words, maybe in 50 years (or if Kendo ever gets popular in English speaking countries), the process of adaption for kendo words will be complete. Already, the words Tsunami and Karate are English words- they are not ONLY Japanese words anymore. Kindergarten used to be a German word, but I think now a days, most people would agree that kindergarten is a word in the English language.

So, because the Japanese words are not yet adapted into our language, we DECIDE what correct is. If we choose to follow the Japanese grammatical standards when using the words in our own language, that is our choice.

It's actually kind of ironic that the "Sensei(s)" pluralize the loan borrowed words when using them in English. Thats probably because they can't pluralize them using Japanese grammar (they arn't speaking Japanese) so it makes sense to pluralize them in English.

Correcting the Sensei(s) is even more funny. So, uhh, your correcting them on their own (loan borrowed) Japanese words because in Japanese grammar you can't pluralize Japanese words?? That just doesn't make sense lol!

Well anyway, once stating that, it does seem that there is a consensus on many of these words, which means that they have adapted into the language more so than I thought. (or maybe some people are just very opinionated hah). SO I guess many people are using the ENGLISH RULE says that some words shouldn't be pluralized. I think that rule also applies to many latin imported words(?)

There is a correct answer, and the answer is since it's a japanese word, you use japanese rules. Sensei, for example, can be plural or singular depending on context. You don't use english rules unless you're using english terms.

edit: ooh just saw Neil's post and yeah, I wouldn't bother correcting them. I'd still think it's incorrect though.

No offense, but, assuming it is correct, your reasoning for why it's correct is not accurate. Simply put, grammar in a language, any language, is correct because the majority of speakers in that language say it is so. Since the language which we are talking about is English (and the words we are using are loan borrowed) we must ask "is this correct" to those who use the words in the English language. If everyone agrees that it shouldn't be pluralized, then that's fine, it shouldn't be. But don't say its because its a Japanese word as if you are somehow defiling a Japanese word by pluralizing it. Words are collections of sounds and they are rather arbitrary. You can't defile words (no matter how beautiful the language is.)

Please don't take offense, but, you really shouldn't talk about things with such certainty when you don't know anything about it. I don't know everything about this stuff either, but I have studied linguistics at the graduate level so I do have some understanding. Its just a pet peeve of mine when people talk about things with such certainty like that.

[sirius1906]

Try to do what's right, not what's convenient. Otherwise, you are wasting your time with kendo, iaido.

There's no plural in Japanese word. Now you know. Start trying, and stop making excuses.

[atgm]

I think MAG has a point in one respect; once a word is subsumed into English, then it's "okay" to pluralize it with an "s" -- it's no longer Japanese, it's English, with English meanings and connotations. This has happened to "ninja" and "tsunami" and countless other words that aren't Japanese but have been taken as English.

The same thing happens in Japanese. Japanese is absolutely notorious for borrowing words. These words, once borrowed, take on meanings and connotations specific to the Japanese language; for all intents and purpose, they ARE Japanese. So they follow Japanese rules, not English rules or German rules or Portuguese rules.

However, kendo terminology is far from being "general English," which is why I resist using English rules. It's Japanese used in a Japanese context, so I use Japanese grammar.

[Knicky]

As someone mentioned earlier, look at the roots of the English language. It's a pretty mongolized language. However, it came from a certain part of the world. Also, when people put 's' on words to make them plural, I think they are doing it a lot by the sound. To me 'cannon' is a singular word. Whether this is right or not, I don't know -- nor really care -- but cannons just sounds right to me in my head (when making it plural).

Importing Asian words into the English language will end up creating a different set of conjugations (plural sense of this) for each word. Japanese might be a bit easier to do this off the top of our heads because Japanese words are a lot easier to pronounce than some other Asian languages. I think if you started throwing Chinese (insert random language here) words at us we wouldn't be able to argue the linguistic semantics of it as easily.

However, in the case of kendo words, especially with how centralized the community is -- if kendo words become main stream it will be from us and the speach patterns will be copied by the people in our foot steps.

Although the word 'sushis' would probably drive me ballistic.

[D'Artagnan]

Personally, I tend not to pluralise Japanese words when speaking English. Though having said that, (I can't think why I would say this) but I can imagine probably saying something like "that guy has two Hondas" or something like that... As someone already said, when the Japanese language borrows English words, it doesn't pluralise them when in English they should be. So I guess in my opinion, neither is right or wrong.

As a side note, I can only think of one person I know well who is genuinely bilingual in both Japanese and English and that person almost always adds an 's' when pluralising Japanese words - except in cases where it is not sensible, such as 'sushis'.

In cases like the word 'sushi' I feel it is more natural to apply alternative plural forms, probably because it is something that is almost always presented in multiples of more than one and is small, I think it should be used like the english word 'sand'. But I am far from a cunning linguist...

[MartialArtsGirl]

I think MAG has a point in one respect; once a word is subsumed into English, then it's "okay" to pluralize it with an "s" -- it's no longer Japanese, it's English, with English meanings and connotations. This has happened to "ninja" and "tsunami" and countless other words that aren't Japanese but have been taken as English.

The same thing happens in Japanese. Japanese is absolutely notorious for borrowing words. These words, once borrowed, take on meanings and connotations specific to the Japanese language; for all intents and purpose, they ARE Japanese. So they follow Japanese rules, not English rules or German rules or Portuguese rules.

However, kendo terminology is far from being "general English," which is why I resist using English rules. It's Japanese used in a Japanese context, so I use Japanese grammar.

Thank you thank you! Somebody gets what I've been trying to say! Actually, in all truth, I haven't even put forth my OWN opinion on whether or not certain words should be pluralized. I've been trying very hard to get the point across. Hmm, I see your point though since the Japanese words havent been consumed by English, as one person so eloquently put it.

As someone mentioned earlier, look at the roots of the English language. It's a pretty mongolized language. However, it came from a certain part of the world. Also, when people put 's' on words to make them plural, I think they are doing it a lot by the sound. To me 'cannon' is a singular word. Whether this is right or not, I don't know -- nor really care -- but cannons just sounds right to me in my head (when making it plural).

Importing Asian words into the English language will end up creating a different set of conjugations (plural sense of this) for each word. Japanese might be a bit easier to do this off the top of our heads because Japanese words are a lot easier to pronounce than some other Asian languages. I think if you started throwing Chinese (insert random language here) words at us we wouldn't be able to argue the linguistic semantics of it as easily.

Those are some very good points. Thats true, every word will probably be adapted differently.

However, in the case of kendo words, especially with how centralized the community is -- if kendo words become main stream it will be from us and the speach patterns will be copied by the people in our foot steps.

Although the word 'sushis' would probably drive me ballistic.

Yes, that's exactly what I've been trying to say. The foundations for how these words are to be used will be laid down by us.

Try to do what's right, not what's convenient. Otherwise, you are wasting your time with kendo, iaido.

There's no plural in Japanese word. Now you know. Start trying, and stop making excuses.

ok? Have you even read my posts?

Frankly, I don't even know what to say to this.

Personally, I tend not to pluralise Japanese words when speaking English. Though having said that, (I can't think why I would say this) but I can imagine probably saying something like "that guy has two Hondas" or something like that... As someone already said, when the Japanese language borrows English words, it doesn't pluralise them when in English they should be. So I guess in my opinion, neither is right or wrong.

Yes, exactly! No right or wrong.

As far as the word bogu, I do notice that I tend to cringe at pluralizing it. So I dont pluralize that one.

I have been pluralizing ippon, and I do pluralize Sensei.
I also think saying tsuked is alright, because otherwise it doesnt make sense. Or rather, the very fact that it exists suggests that it's being used frequently... because every other cut (men, kote) is "I hit men" or "I hit kote". But instead of saying "I hit tsuki" it's "I tsuked him" or something... I wonder why that is, hmm. Does the Japanese language use the word tsuki as a verb, or is this just some kind of arbitrary adaption? Men and kote are being used as knowns (i.e. I hit men/kote) but tsuki as a verb... interesting!

That being said, since the word "ippon" means one hit, or something like that, it does seem sort of silly to say ippons, and (I think) the general consensus is that we shouldn't use "ippons". So I think I'm going to change my usage of that word, now that I have a better understanding of the words meaning.

However, I also want to keep my signature word "ippons" because it makes the meme even more funny, especially if we decide that ippons is grammatically incorrect (which seems to be the general consensus). How many people know the original meme "All your bases are belong to us?" which orginated from a translated Japanese video game? It was so grammatically bad that one of the worst phrases from the video game became the meme "All your bases are belong to us". lol So if "ippons" is grammatically incorrect, it makes it even better!

Dang that meme is old. >.<

OMG my grad school is turning me into a linguistic geek... :\

[The great I AM]

I think it should be used like the english word 'sand'.

What, like "In a bath of....."? What use is that for sushi?!

[atgm]

I also think saying tsuked is alright, because otherwise it doesnt make sense. Or rather, the very fact that it exists suggests that it's being used frequently... because every other cut (men, kote) is "I hit men" or "I hit kote". But instead of saying "I hit tsuki" it's "I tsuked him" or something... I wonder why that is, hmm. Does the Japanese language use the word tsuki as a verb, or is this just some kind of arbitrary adaption? Men and kote are being used as knowns (i.e. I hit men/kote) but tsuki as a verb... interesting!

It's a noun meaning "a thrust" or "a stab" derived from the verb tsuku, meaning "to stab."

That being said, since the word "ippon" means one hit, or something like that, it does seem sort of silly to say ippons, and (I think) the general consensus is that we shouldn't use "ippons".

True. Which is why you get shinpan saying "ippon" and "nihon" rather than "two ippon" or "two ippons."

Hmm, I see your point though since the Japanese words havent been consumed by English, as one person so eloquently put it.

I think I said "subsumed."

[D'Artagnan]

"In a bath of....."?

Ha Ha Ha! now that is funny!

[atgm]

Yes, it's the kind of nonsense up with which we should not put.

I always hated Strunk and his selfish, contrived rules.

[turboyoshi]

The point I was trying to make, and can't seem to get across, is, that once a word is used in the English language, it becomes an English word and NOT a Japanese word.

I get your point, I just don't agree with it. A word, once borrowed, does not mean it has become part of the language. Sensei, is a japanese word. The most correct english word is instructor, or teacher. If you want to sue english rules, use the english word. My point is that, we, knowing the word "sensei" is either plural or singular depending on context, should use that word correctly. We don't need to dumb it down for the ignorant.

But don't say its because its a Japanese word as if you are somehow defiling a Japanese word by pluralizing it. Words are collections of sounds and they are rather arbitrary. You can't defile words (no matter how beautiful the language is.)

I'm not concerned with maintaining the purity of the language, only with doing what I know to be correct.

Please don't take offense, but, you really shouldn't talk about things with such certainty when you don't know anything about it. I don't know everything about this stuff either, but I have studied linguistics at the graduate level so I do have some understanding. Its just a pet peeve of mine when people talk about things with such certainty like that.

I'm not offended, I don't think this is an issue important enough to warrant that much emotion. I agree with the poster who said that the importance of language is to communicate an idea and if the idea got across, then the language has done it's job. In the end, that's all that really matters. I'm not worried about correcting anyone else's use of language. But I also agree with pgsmith for stating you should do what you know to be correct, regardless of what the majority think.

[hl1978]

If a word of foreign origin shows up in an Webster's or any other big name english dictionary, its fair to say its become part of the english language as it had been widely adoptd by the english speaking population. I would hate to learn english as a second language as there are way too many inconsistent rules with regards to grammar. It would be much easier to just restandardize the language to conform to a common system of adding plurals and to remove "the" and "a/an" from grammatical requirements.

I lived in japan (and usually spend a few weeks-months there every year) and when using japanese words in plural form amongst English speakers, I add an S. A fair number of japanese living in the US do the same, particulary around those who are not familiar with the grammar of the japanese language. I wouldn't get worked up about Japanese speakers mangling the English language either, but it is qute commical. I don't think its any more likely that the 天皇 is going to show up at english speaker's doors to berate english speaker's about improper japanese than the Queen of England.

On a side note, english needs spelling reform and I find it amusing seeing the occasional posts amongst spelling nazi's who clearly understand what the word meant, who also happen to be blissfully unaware of the great vowel shift, or even how recently "standardized" spelling even began.

[sirius1906]

ok? Have you even read my posts?

Frankly, I don't even know what to say to this.

Yes, maybe I overly sensitive, but as someone had already said, you are using these Japanese words within the kendo community, with people knows the context. If these terms becomes mainstream, it would be coming from us. So why not get it right from the start? I don't want to hear, "Oh, you practice 'I-E-Do'. I know what that is."

Like ShinKenshi, I also cringe every time I hear someone say "saki", "carry-oky"

[turboyoshi]

Just to confuse the issue even further, not all english words become pluralized by the addition of an "s" or an "es" on the end, ie. sheep, goose, or that's not the only way to pluralize some nouns ie. platypus. So, you don't have to argue that any change is necessary to make a new word plural.
On top of that, who are you going to accept as a correct source? The american heritage dictionary doesn't exactly agree with merriam-webster for the entry on sensei.