What's the reasoning for segregating women's and men's indivudals/teams at NYC Shiai?

[michaelm]

15 pages of responses from the last time you asked:
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...omen-and-Shiai

[ratdeau]

In Switzerland we have both, Open (Males + Females) and Women (only).

[Sophie]

I can understand your feelings though~
There are no women at all at my dojo, so I wouldn't be able to join a team. (unless I'd join another dojo's team....)
Well, I'm not even thinking about participating right now though. Eheheh, Need more skills plz.

[bellatrix]

I have two responses to this thread.
First, I'm a bit disappointed in all the anti-feminist sentiment around. Presumably we're all here because we like kendo, not because we're in some giant war of the sexes.

That said, I am both appreciative and skeptical of having women's and men's divisions (This mostly applies to individuals, as the dynamic is slightly different for teams). I appreciate it because it gives women a space in which to compete, and not feel out of place due to being outnumbered or whatever. I'm skeptical because at my first tournament (which was actually the Brooklyn one mentioned here, woo aeuskf) I competed in both the women's and the kyu section, as I was unranked but wanted experience. In my first match in the women's section, I was up against a 3rd dan, and she wiped the floor with me. I preferred competing in the kyu division, because I went up against someone who was closer to my skill level. I'm not saying that all accomplished kendoka should only be matched up against someone of their rank, but rather that at the lower levels, competing with people who will not pummel you just by looking at you can actually make you learn more, and gain confidence in yourself. Also, I assume dan-ranked kendoka would prefer to go up against other dans (Only speculation though. Not there yet.)
I'm slightly worried that there may not be enough women to have a dan/kyu division in addition to the woman/man one. I sincerely hope that there are, 'cause that would be a great thing.

Personally, I would much prefer a division based on rank to one based on sex. If both, then I'm fine with that.

(sorry if that was long)

[b8amack]

Even the yudan/mudan divisions are a luxury, that I think people are taking for granted. One of my dojomate's first tournaments, he was 5th or 4th kyu, and his first (and last) match was against a sandan, because that's how it is. And we had more than enough competitors for both divisions. That said, I know a ni-dan woman who lost to a mudansha in the women's division, because her opponent was a tournament veteran, and she herself was inexperienced.

[bellatrix]

I partly agree with you, but my point is that if organizations want to divide matches into divisions, then I'd rather see one based on skill level than sex.

*ETA*: I'm also pretty tired so I might not be making sense and contradicting myself a bit. Anyway, I'll go sleep (blame midterms and DST for my nocturnal schedule) and think about this some more.

[b8amack]

Also, what anti-feminism?

[MikeW]

Different federations/sub-regions do it differently. In the SEUSKF we typically have teams, ranked divisions (i.e. mudansha, shodan-nidan, sandan and above), sometimes a youth division (with no gender exclusions for any of the above). We also do have a womens individuals division and I see it basically in a similar vein as the seniors division ( which we also use, no gender exclusions there either). From what I have heard from people is that they like having the womens division, but since our system is a bit different and we don't have separate teams divisions based on gender its not the same as in the question posed originally by MAG. And yes, in the open womens division you can have kyu ranks going against a 5dan (highest female ranked in our region I believe) but thats no different than it is for me if I enter the seniors division where a person that is old enough can enter regardless of rank so you can have a person that is unranked going against someone like Maeda sensei (nanadan). Just luck of the draw.

[bellatrix]

Also, what anti-feminism?

Reading it now, I think it was very sarcastic. At least I hope so. For all the people who say they're tired of sex/gender issues---it is the women's forum.

[ahmed61086]

Hey Martial Arts girl,

What about when women have their own division. Isn't that unfair. Shouldn't men be allowed to join womens only tournaments if they so chose?

I mean, we cannot have a double standard. If you want things to be equal, they have to be equal for everyone.

The way I see it. If men have their own division, and women have their own division, thats just the way it is. Why is most tournaments have a womens shiai and then a mixed shiai, but not a Mens only shiai? Should women be allowed to join the mens competition(mixed competition are usualy comprised mostly of men) but the men are not allowed to join the womens? This is usually the way it works.

Rather, we see in most tournaments, the women have their own division, and the the women are also allowed to join in their respective rank division as well. Is this not sexist? This seems to be a double standard in favor of the women, not the men.

If we were to be totally equal and "fair", there would be no mens or womens divion, just one division with both men and women. But its the truth when we say, if that were the case, you would rarely see a women be awarded a first place trophy. This is why their are womens only division and mens only division. Its pure biology.

[turboyoshi]

What about when women have their own division. Isn't that unfair. Shouldn't men be allowed to join womens only tournaments if they so chose?

No. Because there is a purpose to having a division that excludes men that is not served by having a division that excludes women. It's similar to affirmative action for minorities. Now you can argue whether that purpose is actually being served but that's really a different topic.

[...]
Its pure biology.

And possibly sociology. There are biological differences that give a male an advantage over a female in any physical activity and you'd have to be delusional to argue that fact. There are also psychological differences which may be harder to quantify but no less significant. Thus, having a women's only division might help to address those issues as well as the physical ones. I think if people find something wrong with that, the real problem may be a personal issue they should be dealing with privately rather than ruining the fun for everyone else.
There is nothing wrong with having a division exclusive to women. No one should have to feel insulted by that and no one is certainly losing out on any opportunity by it.

[ahmed61086]

No. Because there is a purpose to having a division that excludes men that is not served by having a division that excludes women. It's similar to affirmative action for minorities. Now you can argue whether that purpose is actually being served but that's really a different topic.



And possibly sociology. There are biological differences that give a male an advantage over a female in any physical activity and you'd have to be delusional to argue that fact. There are also psychological differences which may be harder to quantify but no less significant. Thus, having a women's only division might help to address those issues as well as the physical ones. I think if people find something wrong with that, the real problem may be a personal issue they should be dealing with privately rather than ruining the fun for everyone else.
There is nothing wrong with having a division exclusive to women. No one should have to feel insulted by that and no one is certainly losing out on any opportunity by it.

That question you quoted of me was a rhetorical question. It wasn't meant to be taken literally. It was showing the double standard of having womens only tournaments but not having mens only tournements in a lot of shiai.

And since this tournament in NYC is having a mens only shiai, and a womens only shiai, I find it ironic that anyone would find this decision to be somehow biased or sexist.

No where did I mention that I think women should not have a shiai for themselves, rather I encouraged it. I dont think you understood my post. The purpose of my post was to point out the illogical reasoning by the person starting the thread. I am all for womens only tournaments. And I personally dont mind mixed tournaments either. I also dont mind Mens only shiais. I like it all actually.

[b8amack]

No. Because there is a purpose to having a division that excludes men that is not served by having a division that excludes women. It's similar to affirmative action for minorities. Now you can argue whether that purpose is actually being served but that's really a different topic.

Affirmative action is not the reason for mens and womens divisions, I think. I'm curious how you came to that conclusion. And furthermore, having an open division and a women's only division would negate any argument that it was done for that reason.

I think it would be great if there was a women's only division, a men's only division, and a mixed division, but as (I think it was Neil) said in the first thread, that'd simply be too much demanded of the time constraints of a kendo tournament, especially if individuals were allowed to enter both the men's or women's and the open division.

I guess what bothers me about MAG's posts in this regard is how she so casually throws the word misogyny out there. That's a pretty serious accusation, especially since she started a whole other thread with people explaining that hatred of women was very much NOT the reason for having mens and womens divisions in kendo (although there was one poster in there who seemed to have issues with women in general, he was definitely in the minority).

[rfoxmich]

I'm starting to smell dead horse.

[GothMelancolia]

Just related with this

Consider this situation (because I’m bored and I really don’t want to work today)

You have one really small ladies practitioner’s population (let’s say 10-20 girls)
Most of them are low ranks (or no rank) and with little kendo/contest experience.
Regarding men the situation is different you have a large number of men practitioners the highest rank being something like godan or rokudan (this is a theoretical situation)
You are the last year’s winner of the lady’s individual contest….you very skilled and train hard every year and have lots of high ranks to practice with. You know what the level of training the other girls have and there is a 90 % chance of wining the contest this year as well (because the other girls don’t have enough experience in contest, they don’t usually practice with other girls, they don’t have high ranked people to practice with, they don’t train as hard as you, doesn’t matter)
You have the opportunity of competing in men’s division OR lady’s division (Can’t be in both you have to choose).
If you compete in men’s division you’ll get to meet some of the best players in your country. If you’ll participate in lady’s division you’ll most probably win all the matches and compete against beginners.

What will you chose and why?

Consider in the same situation you are the organizer for this contest…will you allow girls to participate in men’s division or make separate divisions.

Why?

I would really like to hear the opinions of both boys and girls, just imagine yourself in this situation