Sun Tzu: All warfare is based on deception.

[Charlie]

Do you practice deception in kendo? How?

It seems to me that what we practice in kendo is not so much deception as a quality of unreadability. Perhaps with the direction and focus of our kensei, we can more blatantly deceive (fake to kote, go for men) but I don't know that this is universal; rather, what's universal is a placid exterior and a fierce interior that explodes into action. At least I think. Would love to hear other views.

To tell the truth, there are a lot of challenges in discussing Sun Tzu's Art of War here at the forum and in a kendo context, including understanding the text in its original historical context, understanding the strategy and tactics it advocates, and applying what it says about mass battles to individual combat in general or kendo specifically. Still, I believe it is one of the works that many of our instructors in the art recommend we read, so not only is it worth a shot for those inclined to that kind of study but there may be rewards for doing so.

Your thoughts?

[Tatu]

I saw someone in the Yondan and above division fake a dramatic yawn and scored a point (men) and that person went on to win the match. It was a work of art - art of deception that is!

[ahmed61086]

Well, i think we must also look at what Sun tsu is talking about. Is he talking about 1 on 1 combat, or actually warfare, battle between armies. From my understanding Sun tzu's book focuses on battles between large groups.

While there are many similarities in the two, there are also major differences as well.

But I think that there is definitely some deception in kendo.

[Big One]

The point of deception is to make your enemy surprise, unprepare, or doing something stupid like premature attacked. It was applied every where in the warfare, bussiness, or even Kendo. We have seen the Allied faking landing at Italy but actually D-day at Normandi. We have seen a Kendoka intention of commitment attacking Men and then suddenly going for Kote. The case of Teramoto was trying to attack Do at Takanabe and at the end suddenly changing direction and go for Men to accoplish a champion. That was the most beautiful deception right there.

[Hanmi]

Well, i think we must also look at what Sun tsu is talking about. Is he talking about 1 on 1 combat, or actually warfare, battle between armies. From my understanding Sun tzu's book focuses on battles between large groups.

Sun Tzu also said that being the General of a large army is the same as being the General of a small army, there are just more flags.... So, with this in mind, I would say that they are the same, just on a different scale.

The use if "seme" to draw in an opponent to attack so that you can execute a planned [counter]-attack could be easily construed as form of deception: Kote-nuki-Hiki-Men; Men-Kaishi-Dou; etc.

[Charlie]

Sun Tzu is one of those books that all martial arts students generally and kendo people specifically are advised to study. To me, that means try to grasp what Sun Tzu was saying in his context and apply the principle of it to what you're doing (I think about this for my work in business, too, which will probably cause some groans as there is an excessive "management secrets of the samurai" body of business literature).

[Fonsz]

"management secrets of the samurai"

I thought Sun Tzu was Chinese and not a Samurai......
The one trickery that falls into your category I saw was by a friend of mine. During a shiai he looked away at the shinpan as if he was saying or announcing something. His aite looked also at the shinpan and at that moment of confusion he struck.... Kote Arrriiiiiiii! The other guy was furious and said afterwards that it wasn't really sportsman's like. I thought it was rather sneaky as well but hey he progressed to the quarter finals.

[~Slippy~]

Hmm, I don't think the application of "real" deception should applied to Kendo. Forcing your opponent into self deception, sure, but "dishonouring" yourself and your opponent with underhanded tricks doesn't really seem like the values that Kendo strives to teach. We're practising the art of the Samurai, not those pesky Ninjas! I was always led to believe a shiai is about two individuals sparring to help each other better themselves, not simply to 'win'. Japan's view on the way of things are segregated from the majority of the world, applying normal logic to it, doesn't seem the right thing to do.

Not to discredit Sun Tzu of course. Even if he is a 'tad' bit overrated. Although I'm still a newbie in the Kendo world, so I wouldn't hold anything I say to heart.

[ben]

I think the secret of using a text like Sun Tzu's is you just take what is useful for you in your context and disregard that which isn't.

Certainly in kendo there is deception, but there is also an invisible line where 'tricks' are considered forbidden. Perhaps this is the difference between do and jutsu. Kendo practice and deportment should be 正々堂々 seisei dodo, or as we would say in Aus, 'fair dinkum'.

Exactly where that line is, is a job for your sensei to help you define. b

[tango]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

Kendo is all about deception.
I make you think I'm closer than I really am. I make you think kote is open when it really isn't. I make you think I'm about to attack when I'm not.

The list is endless. That's not "sneaky" kendo or "tricky" kendo... that's just kendo.

Now, if you want to argue HOW I make you think I'm closer than I really am, or HOW I make you think kote is open, etc., as being "tricky" or "sneaky", then maybe that would have merit....

[tango]

The one trickery that falls into your category I saw was by a friend of mine. During a shiai he looked away at the shinpan as if he was saying or announcing something. His aite looked also at the shinpan and at that moment of confusion he struck.... Kote Arrriiiiiiii! The other guy was furious and said afterwards that it wasn't really sportsman's like. I thought it was rather sneaky as well but hey he progressed to the quarter finals.

well... on that, I would agree with you.

[hyuna]

I try not to be deceptive at all in keiko. Sometimes it is tempting to trick my partner, but I think it is ultimately self-defeating.

I try to press in on my partner by improving my position and trying to maneuver to worsen their position, and if I detect a lapse of pressure from their side, I try to go right away. I try not to feint kote and then go for men. Rather, I might try to go for kote and then react with their reaction. The difference for me is that if I try to feint kote then if kote really opens up then I don't take it, and I think that is an error. I should attack kote and if my opponent covers their kote and exposes their men, then I should be able to react to the changing situation. Then if they leave their kote open I will be of the correct mindset to take it. But I think it is even better to move in to strike not even thinking specifically of kote -- rather, just move in and at the last instant hit what happens to be open. This is not hiding intention, it is not having any intention. I feel that I am nowhere near to this, but it is how I would like to be and I think trying to hide my intention is counter-productive to that path. If I move in with intention, it is good for my partner to read it and tell me that they saw it. If I learn to hide my intention, how will my partner be able to help me learn how to do this?

Sometimes I get frustrated. Then, I am tempted to make a feint or make some other deception in order to take the point. But I think that, for me, it is wrong to do this (although I have to admit that I do often give in). For one, I improve my character by controlling myself instead of just giving into my frustrations. Second, it is committing a sin of pride, because I should be happy for the opportunity to improve instead of annoyed or embarrassed at my inability to score. Third, it furthers the illusion that the point of keiko is to score points, that is, to "win." Also, taking advantage of my partner is not a way to improve myself. Finally, as I said above, I think it is a waste of time and energy.

But, shiai is different than keiko. I guess keiko isn't really "warfare"...

[Shinsengumi77]

Hmm, I don't think the application of "real" deception should applied to Kendo. Forcing your opponent into self deception, sure, but "dishonouring" yourself and your opponent with underhanded tricks doesn't really seem like the values that Kendo strives to teach. We're practising the art of the Samurai, not those pesky Ninjas!

Sorry Slippy, but the samurai weren't always the paragons of honor and nobility people make them out to be, and many were likely employed as spies and assassins (i.e. ninja) by their lords. Samurai warfare relied heavily on the principles of Sun Tzu's deception, too.

Kendo has plenty of deception. It's how we define the word deception that can make it seem unfair/ dishonorable. If you describe it as using underhanded means to gain an advantage, it sounds terrible, but if you describe it as as simply having more information than someone else, and not letting on that you do, it sounds much better, right?. There are of course, times when one can cross the line.

[Raffa]

I thought Sun Tzu was Chinese and not a Samurai.......

As for that Sun Tzu had lived nearly one thousand years before the first samurai, and his teachings are actual even now. The samurai just took what they think would be usefull from China, Sun Tsu teachings, Zen philosophy, buddhism, kanjii, silk production, etc...

Coming to the thread title, i completely agree with Tango. Deception have an important role in kendo. A succesfull ojii waza comes from a good deception. force someone to made an attack you want is not simple...

[kanyil]

Being a Chinese war history geek, I personally think the translated phrase of "all warfare is based on deception" (兵不厭詐) is both incorrect and incomplete.

The beauty of old Chinese is that a simple phrase can be interpreted in many ways. A more literal translation of 兵不厭詐 is "one should not disapprove of/dislike deception/sneakiness in warfare". IMHO this is the better translation when put into the proper cultural and historical context (Sun Tzu's Art of War was written during the Spring and Autumn Period of Chinese history). As always, putting things into context is essential. While many things remain true to this day, one should bear in mind that many aspects of Sun Tzu's Art of War has been criticised by his descendant Sun Bin (who was a renowned master strategist in his own right) as being outdated.

Consider the extremely well known War of Sze Sui (638BC, a few generations before Sun Tzu's time), where King Song insisting on fighting mano-a-mano (repeatedly rejected his general's suggestion to assault King Chu's forces as they were fording a river) due to a mis-guided sense of chivalry, thereby leading to the obliteration of his own army and his own death. The battle was wildly cited as a joke during the Spring and Autumn Period and the ensuring Warring States Period, and Sun Tzu would have undoubtedly known about it. Some considers this passage in Sun Tzu's Art of War as a rejection of such foolish, rigid behaviour (two thousand years later, Mao also described King Song's conduct as "chivalry, stupid pig style").

In my view, this particular passage's main point is not that deception must always be used, but rather the value of being unpredictable. Being always deceptive makes one predictable and therefore goes directly against the spirit of what Sun Tzu's trying to convey.

As regards kendo, IMHO, this passage is particularly relevant to the development of seme. It might be a while before I get it, but I'm working on it.