Sun Tzu: All warfare is based on deception.

[Charlie]

Cool discussion! Kanyil, what is your preferred translation of the work, if you have one? I'm into the Griffith, the old stand-by, but I want to check out the new (?) Penguin edition.

Arthur, I'm thinking somewhat similarly to you. First of all, Sun Tzu's ideas don't come naturally to me. I'm not particularly clever or good at making calculations. In fact, I think Sun Tzu might have recognized me as "brave and stupid," as one of the commentators said, and used me accordingly ("I need someone to lead the frontal assault while I lead the flanking maneuver. Hey, I know just the guy!") But secondly, yeah, I think when Sun Tzu talks about warfare he talks about winning - most applicable, to us, as shiai; in Sun Tzu's concept of warfare winning is the ultimate goal (noticeably, he urges winning the peace as well as the war, something many generations of warring states seem to have lost sight of). So Sun Tzu's ideas don't take into account growing as a person or fighter through losing or taking risks.

But, I agree with Ben - take what you can from this. Sun Tzu often says in the text to attack the enemy's weakness with your strengt - very kendo-like, to my thinking, attack what's open.

A few more thoughts:

-Sun Tzu urges the use of espionage, says it's critical. In shiai or keiko, do you seek out information about your potential opponent so that you can use that info against him?

-Sun Tzu says there are normal and extranormal forces. You utilize the normal to engage the enemy but reserve the extranormal for special operations. Do you divide your waza that way? Say, cut ai-men and ai-kote while having a secondary waza in mind for application? (Kanyil, am I even reading this part correctly?)

[Rennis]

Consider the extremely well known War of Sze Sui
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The battle was wildly cited as a joke during the Spring and Autumn Period and the ensuring Warring States Period,

And in the densho of at least one Japanese kenjutsu ryuha much later in the 1600's

[D'Artagnan]

I haven't read 'the art of war', though I agree that 'deception' factors into several waza in Kendo, certainly for lower-level players like myself.

However, the very best Ippon that I have lost to have been the ones where I wasn't decieved all. Usually with a decent Hachidan (for example), I know how far away they are, I know their intention, they aren't trying to hide it at all... the very fact they can still hit me despite me knowing all this is exactly what makes them great...

So in my opinion, the very best way is to win without deception, but until you reach 'enlightenment' then a bit of it is needed.

ps. I hate the word 'tricky' or similar words being applied to Kendo, it'S total nonesense... As for the guys faking stuff in the middle of shiai, shame on them for needing to do that to win, but bigger shame on their opponents for not having the determination to take the initiative.

[G-CHAN]

Sometimes I like to use the"ol' hey there's a naked lady with big boobs behind you men waza.

[kanyil]

I read Chinese so go by the various versions in Chinese and have no preferred translation.

I checked my sources when I got home last night and the phrase "All warfare is based on deception" has been cited as the English translation of two different Chinese phrases in the Art of War, the one being "兵不厭詐" and the other "兵者，詭道也". The first I read as "one should not disapprove of/dislike deception/sneakiness in warfare" (as noted previously), and the second, "warfare is deception / surprise / unconventional / extranormal".

Either way, IMO, the reference to deception is not about "dirty tricks", the point is to unbalance the opponent through the unexpected. The unbalancing takes place before the actual fight, leading to openings which can then be exploited to win. In the context of kendo, I think this would be akin to the use of seme to create openings before the actual ippon (e.g. "win before you fight"). On the other hand, poor attempts at seme / unbalancing can be unconvincing and backfire (which seems to happen to me a lot in kendo).

Re normal and extranormal, I think you are referring to the passage "凡戰者，以正合，以奇勝。" (warfare is waged by direct / conventional / expected method but won by indirect / unconventional / unexpected methods) IMO, from the way the language was used I think the concept is a bit more fluid than a simple division of normal / extranormal. Bearing in mind the value Sun Tzu places on unpredictability and flexibility, I think "normal" will depend on your opponent expects you to do, and "extranormal" is what is unexpected by your opponent. E.g. if your opponent expects you to go for fast kotes, then that's "normal", whereas an unexpected shinsa style straight big men, which is "extranormal" in this case might mess up their timing and get you an ippon.

Your thoughts?

Kendo is all about deception.

I make you think I'm closer than I really am. I make you think kote is open when it really isn't. I make you think I'm about to attack when I'm not.

The list is endless. That's not "sneaky" kendo or "tricky" kendo... that's just kendo.

Tango, you are a true Sun Tzu's man! What Sun Tzu said was:

"Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."

[Big One]

I haven't read 'the art of war', though I agree that 'deception' factors into several waza in Kendo, certainly for lower-level players like myself.

However, the very best Ippon that I have lost to have been the ones where I wasn't decieved all. Usually with a decent Hachidan (for example), I know how far away they are, I know their intention, they aren't trying to hide it at all... the very fact they can still hit me despite me knowing all this is exactly what makes them great...

So in my opinion, the very best way is to win without deception, but until you reach 'enlightenment' then a bit of it is needed.

ps. I hate the word 'tricky' or similar words being applied to Kendo, it'S total nonesense... As for the guys faking stuff in the middle of shiai, shame on them for needing to do that to win, but bigger shame on their opponents for not having the determination to take the initiative.

I believe this was still a deception. When I jigeiko with a Hachidan Sensei, they seem too relax to me. They made you to think you have the game and the ippon is just there for you to pick up. You let down your guard and then whammm bammm. Even when they committed to hit you, you still don't know when is the lauching point.

[D'Artagnan]

I believe this was still a deception. When I jigeiko with a Hachidan Sensei, they seem too relax to me. They made you to think you have the game and the ippon is just there for you to pick up. You let down your guard and then whammm bammm. Even when they committed to hit you, you still don't know when is the lauching point.

I know this experience all too well, but it isn't the same as what I am referring too. I am talking about when you do know what they plan to do (usually tobikomi men) and when they plan to do it, but they still have the ability to strike. It is not that they deceived me, just that they pressured me with effective seme, and know when the split second is that I am unable to react - even though I don't know that myself... Granted it doesn't happen often.

[Charlie]

Kanyil, I did not know this about you. I love Sun Tzu and have so many questions about it and would love to pester you!

E.g. if your opponent expects you to go for fast kotes, then that's "normal", whereas an unexpected shinsa style straight big men, which is "extranormal" in this case might mess up their timing and get you an ippon.

I think you're thinking like me - "if your opponent expects X then you Y." Thing is, I think in kendo you can create that expectation, through movement, seme, waza. We've all been taught, for example, to cut ai-men twice and then do something different the third time when he expects a third men, kote or nuki-doh or what have you. That's one way to "deceive" or calculate.

Some questions for you, Kanyil:

-What is the Tao? Seems to me you cannot read Sun Tzu without some understanding of this. I think the Tao is "the way of heaven" or "the way of nature" or, perhaps another way of saying it is, "When you 'have the Tao' it means you are doing everything right, your actions are correct for the circumstances (which may or may not be in accordance with the divine since definitions of the divine changed over time). This is why so much Taoist literature says "the sage" is "doing nothing," he is just making it look easy.

-In light of the above, I think Sun Tzu comments succinctly that a good warmaker is, first, a righteous, moral individual at the head or or participating in a righteous, moral political state. Such a person would "have the Tao," right?

-Why does Art of War spend so much time talking about sovereigns and generals and little or no time talking about officers and rank and file troops?

[Shinsengumi77]

I know this experience all too well, but it isn't the same as what I am referring too. I am talking about when you do know what they plan to do (usually tobikomi men) and when they plan to do it, but they still have the ability to strike. It is not that they deceived me, just that they pressured me with effective seme, and know when the split second is that I am unable to react - even though I don't know that myself... Granted it doesn't happen often.

In this case then, it's probably an example of them "achieving victory and then going to battle."

No deception required when you feel you've won.

[G-CHAN]

Either way, IMO, the reference to deception is not about "dirty tricks", the point is to unbalance the opponent through the unexpected. The unbalancing takes place before the actual fight, leading to openings which can then be exploited to win. In the context of kendo, I think this would be akin to the use of seme to create openings before the actual ippon (e.g. "win before you fight"). On the other hand, poor attempts at seme / unbalancing can be unconvincing and backfire (which seems to happen to me a lot in kendo).

I totally agree with you here. I agree with Dartangnan also. I think the main reason sensei is so intimidating is because of the fact that he can hit you at will without deception. In kendo, it's it's about inflicting the 4 sicknesses on the aite.

I was taught to cut through the aites kamae and center. Not to go around it in any way.(No body contortions or some crazy bendy stuff) If you can show an aite that you are capable of cutting through his center at will at any time, this is the highest form of seme you can inflict on an aite. It's all about your skill and knowledge of waza and seme. You can do this with harai, osae, suriage, nidan waza.

If you use deception as a tactic to strike, then you're really not attacking with sutemi. Just my 2 cents.

[kanyil]

Ha, like I said I am a history geek and, given Sun Tzu's importance in Chinese culture and how long it been around, you can imagine quite a bit has been written about it in Chinese. So we get to stand on the shoulder of many giants.

I have a somewhat cynical view of the world so my views are just that, my views, and feel free to disagree.

-What is the Tao? Seems to me you cannot read Sun Tzu without some understanding of this. I think the Tao is "the way of heaven" or "the way of nature" or, perhaps another way of saying it is,

I don't think anyone can answer that question. But it may help to look at it from a philosophical, rather than religious perspective.

Probably due to things being lost in translation, many mistake schools of thought (e.g. Lao/Chuang and Confucian thought) for religions when they are really schools of philosophy. I always get a kick when tele-evangelists denounce Confucius for being a heathen religion / idol, because it shows a complete lack of understanding. You would think one'd at least spend a little time understanding your target before attacking, but alas.

Tao, as you have said, means "the way/the right thing to do/path/road ", the meaning is wide enough to include, for example, kendo being the "way of the sword" and the saying "all roads lead to Rome".

The concept of Tao is all pervasive in Chinese philosophy (much like zen and Confucian philosophy) but IMO I think (as is the case of many other abstract ideas) some people tend to read too much into it. I personally think of Tao as "going with the flow", the flow being the way things are and are developing at the time.

IMO, the Tao is a force, but not an irresistible force and not divine or holy in any way. Using the Three Kingdom's Period as illustration (on the basis actual historical records and not the popular fiction "Romance of the Three Kingdoms"), one could say Yuan Shao arguably had the Tao at the time (not Cao Cao, who is the adopted son of a eunuch, as the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" might suggest). Why?

During late Han, it was clear that the geo-political trend was a movement of power away from the Han Emperor, which was losing control of the country, to rich regional land-owner who can afford and field their own armies (Yuan Shao being the best example). For a time during early Three Kingdoms he was the strongest and almost seemed irresistible, yet he was ultimately (after some close calls) defeated by Cao Cao, who did not have "the tao", but outclassed him on many other fronts as a leader.

-In light of the above, I think Sun Tzu comments succinctly that a good warmaker is, first, a righteous, moral individual at the head or participating in a righteous, moral political state. Such a person would "have the Tao," right?

Yes, and no. Obviously if the leader is incompetent, cowardly or corrupt then that leads to all sorts of problems which could ultimately result in defeat (see Yuan Shao above, who was good looking (i.e. looks the part) but weak willed, paranoid and generally believed to be not a very good leader). But I think what we are really looking at is a reference to the importance PR. It's more about being seen as a righteous, moral individual leading a just cause.

IMO, the main two reasons for stressing this are:

(a) There are multiple kingdoms / warlords during the Spring and Autumn / Warring States Period and things were quite chaotic and backstabbing happens. Having a just cause reduces the likelihood of other warlords having an excuse to help your target or backstab you.

(b) One can find examples of professional armies throughout Chinese history, but these were not the norm until relatively late in history. If a general relies on levying semi-trained peasants (who tends to be relatively untrained and routs easily) as the bulk of his army, then morale plays a very important role. In this respect PR is both internal and external and often involves deception. How would you feel if you were a peasant fighting for (or against) King Arthur with divine blessings (due to an oracular reading that, miraculously, is in your favour) to protect your own country and the lives of your loved ones, and vice versa. Though this is of course not absolute – throughout history we can see through numerous examples that money, plunder and glory (and of course title and baubles) works just as well, if not better, than a just cause in many cases.

-Why does Art of War spend so much time talking about sovereigns and generals and little or no time talking about officers and rank and file troops?

See above. There is a Chinese saying that can be loosely translated as "generals are hard to come by, but armies (e.g. peasants) are cheap" (千軍易得，一將難求).
Back in the days where educated persons are few and far in between and strategy manuals are hard to come by, a good general can be very hard to come by. Peasants, well, there are always more where they came from…

Your thoughts?

[LowFatMat]

I think Kendo is full of deception in the hiding of one's intentions. There's only so many things that can actually happen - men, kote-men....I'm drying up already - but you still try to keep your opponent in the dark as to when the attack is coming, and take measures to mislead or unsettle him to create an opening.

Relevant to the thread, this rather excellent book discusses how Ping Fa was interpreted by the master japanese swordsmen.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sun-Tzu-Medi...8352725&sr=8-1

[turboyoshi]

I think the main reason sensei is so intimidating is because of the fact that he can hit you at will without deception.

When you are that much stronger than your opponent, there's no need to rely on deceptive methods because the opponent will likely make the mistake without prompting from you.
Do you think sensei can fight another sensei and strike at will, with no attempt at deception of any kind? Sensei apply deception. They just use a much more subtle form against each other than they need to use against most of us.

It's all about your skill and knowledge of waza and seme. You can do this with harai, osae, suriage, nidan waza.

All these waza make use of deception. They wouldn't work well if you weren't manipulating your opponent into attacking you in a specific way.

If you use deception as a tactic to strike, then you're really not attacking with sutemi. Just my 2 cents.

Imature logic. If I feint kote and you guard kote to prevent the expected attack, I can strike your men with sutemi. Deception and sutemi aren't mutually exclusive attributes.

[ben]

I agree with the Bogushop guy . Deception as I understand it is used by us mortals (and that includes All Japan taikai level, although they may be a little less mortal than the rest of us). The waza du jour for instance, seems to be fake to men then cut degote on a sharp angle as your opponent raises their hands. But I believe the word used to describe the ideal kendo attack is kuzusu 崩す which my fave site saiga-jp.com says is:

collapse, give way, break, fall to pieces, come apart, cave in, sink down, destroy, demolish.

This is what I think of as kendo at its best, how high level kenshi win. They break their opponent's equilibrium, then step in and take the point. b

[hyuna]

If I close off all lines of attack to all targets but men, then I invite an attack to my men, to which I can respond with ooji-waza. I never do anything to suggest to my opponent that I am not going to defend my men. What is the deception here?

If I lift my hands to hit, my opponent may think that I am going for men. My movement wasn't a "fake men," it was a just a movement that could be used to hit men. Again, where is the deception?

Beginners often don't take points in keiko that are offered to them because they are thinking too much and suspect a trap. We offer a real opening, not a fake opening. They just can't tell the difference.

There is a difference between being wrong and being deceived.

Also consider this: I could intentionally try to fake an opening to my men in order to provoke an attack and perform some ooji waza. But my opponent is better than I am and simply takes the point. Was this a fake opening or a real opening?

There are certainly ways to be deceptive, and they may even look a lot like what I describe above. But I think there is a clear difference in the attitude we adopt in practice.