Seme, from notes.

[Charlie]

This is a terrific write up on seme. (Thanks Kenshi 24/7.) Please note it is from notes:

http://kenshi247.net/blog/2010/02/23...ality-of-seme/

A lot to think about. What do you think - the notes seem to say that seme comes, first, from spirit, center and maai. But then it is linked to a discussion of waza.

In your opinion, seme being something that's understood differently at different levels, is seme something that exists independent of waza, because of waza, or both? I think it's both. I think through studying waza and applying them the strength of your spirit grows and the seme that emerges is a combination of your waza and the spirit behind them.

[Fuyudo]

the link to samurai7/11 came up with "(111) Connection refused" ill take that as a sign.

[tango]

I think it's possible you are trying to look at seme in such a concentrated way that you may be missing a larger, perhaps more important, picture.
I also think you're reading more into the article than what it is really there... maybe.

Personally, I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what you're actually asking...

[b8amack]

the link to samurai7/11 came up with "(111) Connection refused" ill take that as a sign.

Maybe your isp. Works fine here.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I also think you're reading more into the article than what it is really there... maybe.

Well, the words sum what is needed pretty much. Execution is the issue.

[Charlie]

Just really impressed by it on a lot of levels. For one, it's a reminder that there's probably a lot of material on kendo not translated into English, so that's something to be mindful of. It makes the statement that "with only theory you are blind, with only practice you are empty." So, for many of us outside Japan, we have access to the practice but not as much to the theory - bears investigation, I think. For the seme, I simply notice we've had a lot of discussion here at the forum on the topic on what exactly it is, and this does a nice job of breaking it down but, because they are notes and not the text of the lecture, doesn't tie it all together. Maybe, on that part, I'm thinking too much

[tango]

Charlie,

I would reiterate what Neil says.. the notes that are on the link sum things up nicely, and it's just a matter of getting on the floor and executing. My perception is that a 7.dan and a 4.dan have perhaps a different understanding of seme (due to difference in experience), but even then, the two of them might sit down and write out the same kind of "basic seme notes" that are found at the article. ...maybe that makes sense, maybe it doesn't. That's just my perception at this point.

It's really difficult to try to make the concept of seme fit into a nice, neat package and say, "it is what it is" .....

That said, I think everyone has to experience some kind of "lightbulb moment" as it relates to seme... and when that happens, it makes you feel like "oh, I thought I knew what seme was, but now my whole notion of it has changed" ..... and maybe that happens many times over the course of one's kendo career, but it seems to me there is an INITIAL moment when you have a very good sense of what it is at its most basic level (for me, that happened between 3.dan and 4.dan), and from that point forward, it seems that your approach to kendo overall turns into nothing more than spending the next 50+ years trying to figure out seme and trying to master it.

Seems to me I've read some 8.dan write something along the lines of, "Kendo is seme and nothing more."
And as Ebihara-sensei from NY said, "..one lifetime is not enough.." --- maybe one of the neatest things I've heard said about kendo.

[Charlie]

For real. I have a very good friend and mentor that talks of seme as something that emerges naturally from the confidence you have with your waza and the ability to execute it with good timing. Neil has talked about toning down seme when working with kohai in jigeiko, and how a kohai can feel the difference from when it's "on" and when it's "off." Sounds like a very amorphous concept in ways that's open to interpretation. But the notes sort of add it all up like an equation in a way that resonated with me.

[tango]

But the notes sort of add it all up like an equation in a way that resonated with me.

I think what you've touched on there plays a big part in figuring things out. Sometimes we just read or hear or are told something in such a way that finally makes things click...

[Raffa]

......
That said, I think everyone has to experience some kind of "lightbulb moment" as it relates to seme... and when that happens, it makes you feel like "oh, I thought I knew what seme was, but now my whole notion of it has changed" ..... and maybe that happens many times over the course of one's kendo career, but it seems to me there is an INITIAL moment when you have a very good sense of what it is at its most basic level (for me, that happened between 3.dan and 4.dan), and from that point forward, it seems that your approach to kendo overall turns into nothing more than spending the next 50+ years trying to figure out seme and trying to master it.
.....

I feel exactly that way few months ago, I was doing jigeiko with a rokudan that gived me some tips, and then, suddenly - lightbulb on!
Everbody who know me before and see me after says that my kendo has changed quite a lot , and I feel the same....

[ender84567]

less talk more practice...

[JByrd]

For real. I have a very good friend and mentor that talks of seme as something that emerges naturally from the confidence you have with your waza and the ability to execute it with good timing. Neil has talked about toning down seme when working with kohai in jigeiko, and how a kohai can feel the difference from when it's "on" and when it's "off." Sounds like a very amorphous concept in ways that's open to interpretation. But the notes sort of add it all up like an equation in a way that resonated with me.

Some random thoughts...

I think that what we feel as "seme" coming from our opponent is a build up of psychic tension as we feel they are getting closer and closer to the moment of striking us. If we don't feel threatened, there is no perception that our opponent is applying seme, and there is no build up of tension. The threat we feel comes from our estimation of their ability to hit us.

As for terminology, I take it that "tame" refers to the build up of tension before the strike. The term "gaman" refers to our ability to endure that rising pressure without reacting prematurely, so we can strike when the moment is perfectly ripe.

Lately my sensei has been critical of how I connect the "before striking" pressure to the actual strike. Even when I can make a good seme, I have a bad habit of losing the pressure I have built at the moment I initiate the swing. I am trying to learn how to hold my opponent fixed with that pressure just a little longer. It requires me to move my right foot (and body) before I move my shinai, to tighten my grip as needed to maintain center, and to drive my kensen toward my opponent's nodo in the very first earliest part of the attack. It is all about execution.

[Charlie]

less talk more practice...

I agree with you, but, as the piece said: ""with only theory you are blind, with only practice you are empty." So I'm getting outside of my comfort zone here and trying to put a little more thought into the old noodle.

Lemme ask you guys something. What does seme feel like, to you, on the receiving end? What does it feel like from someone about your own skill level versus someone much more skilled than you?

Against the hachidan sensei in our area that I often get to practice with I feel like I am doing kakarigeiko, like there is only air in front of me. He is probably in instructor mode when he does that. Against another guy I like to fight, a very skilled nidan, I feel like "dammit if I blink he will have hit me so don't blink and he's just going to counter you anyway okay here goes DAMN missed again."

[Halcyon]

Lemme ask you guys something. What does seme feel like, to you, on the receiving end? What does it feel like from someone about your own skill level versus someone much more skilled than you?

Seme from a high-ranking sensei feels like: "Oh, crap, here he comes, but DOH! I can't do anything about it," or "He's coming men, he's coming men, let's try degote, then he hits kote-men."

From someone who is very skilled (younger and faster but not necessarily high-ranked), I don't get that same sense of "Oh, crap, here he comes." They're usually right on top of you before you can blink. But with these guys, once I get a chance to read their kendo a little bit, I can usually make a decent attempt at either debana or oji-waza.

[tango]

Lemme ask you guys something. What does seme feel like, to you, on the receiving end? What does it feel like from someone about your own skill level versus someone much more skilled than you?

I haven't had much opportunity to practice with 5.dan+ since getting to 4.dan, but the chances I've had have been difficult... It serves as a reminder that maybe that's what 3.kyus feel like when they fight 4.dans... but I digress. Against the more skilled players (teachers), it seems to depend on what they want to do. before switching over to run me through kikarigeiko, i.e., when they give me a real sense of "this is your chance to really play me," I find it really difficult to recognize their seme at all.. it's very disguised, but of course, I don't realize that until it's too late. They're very good at disguising their thoughts and intentions... very good at making me think MY seme is affecting them, which draws me into attacking at an inopportune time.

...then there are the times like what Paul describes....

I don't have much opportunity to fight against guys I don't know who are at my same level. There are 3 other 4.dans in my club, but I've been fighting them for the past 14ish years and three of us came up pretty much together. This makes things more challenging because we all seem to have a good sense of each others' tendencies as our seme has developed. That said, with those guys, it's kinda 50-50... sometimes I recognize exactly what they're trying to do, what are they are trying to get me to do, what they are targeting... sometimes, they fool me.

But none of those guys have seme that just completely overwhelms me such that I get a sense of hopelessness or futility...