MJER soft???

[ryoma]

Hi all
My name's Martin. I am from Switzerland and new to the forum. But not new to Iai. Later on I will post an introduction here as well with more info (if someone want's to know...).

I am curious about something. It's common knowlegde that after WW2 some combative elements where taken out of MJER, initated by the soke then. Does anyone know what's meant by that in technical terms?

Also I never see this claim in regards to MSR.

Therefore it is save to suggest that MSR kept these "combative elements" (whatever they might be...) compared to MJER? Is MJER more on the "soft" side because of that or does it all comes down to the respective sensei how they teach it?

[Peter West]

I think you have a small amount of information, not enough to give a fuller perspective.
"Soft" is a description of tension in the body. Looking even at old videos, however fast and sharp the movement, the upper body (for the higher ranking sensei) is always relaxed and natural.
I don't know what you mean by "Combative elements" in this case. They cannot be taken out, if they were the kata would have no meaning. Of course, MSR as a style/Ryu is much newer and so there is nothing previous to change from. Certainly Oe Masamichi made a lot of changes, removed many kata and simplified the curriculum. This is not damaging, I think. It is clear from a few kata that were kept alive by his contemporaries and retained as kae waza, that he was cutting out repetition within the curriculum so that we would have more time to spend on repetition of the basic techniques within our practice through deeper study of fewer forms.

I don't have any reason to think that MSR is harder or softer, more or less combative than MJER. Certainly the style is different, but the movements are equally effective.

Where in Switzerland are you? I shall be in Nuolen this coming weekend working on a class of MJER. will you be there? I can put you in touch with the organisers if you are interested.

[ryoma]

Thanks Peter.
I am based in Basel. Never heard about a place called Nuolen in Switzerland... ;-) Just found it on the map...
Quite a strech for me. Sorry, can't make it. Anyway, can you tell me who are the organizers?

[Peter West]

This one is arranged by the local dojo. Linus Bruhin (linus.bruhin@bluewin.ch). Usually my visits to the area are organised by Ray Ballisiti in Zurich (ballisti@ifh.ee.ethz.ch)

I will be in Switzerland again in April (10-11) for the Annual national seminar in Magglingen. Will you be there? Contact for this is Matthew Sykes-Gelder (crazyhoss@bluewin.ch). There will be 5 of us nanadans there, 3 Muso Shinden Ryu and 2 Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

[Andy_Watson]

This is an interesting factor about budo as a whole I believe. For the record, some of the less savoury kata (the ones that tended to focus on assassination or killing a retreating enemy) were also removed from MSR by Nakayama Hakudo Sensei. Even with that removal, both styles of MSR and MJER contain kata with surprise attacks and assassin-like scenario.

Anyway, to reiterate what Peter is alluding to, removing these kata does not make any significant difference to the "combat effectiveness" of the style. Note I said "significant".

Stripping out all the kata and leaving in, say, reiho and mae/shohatto might well affect the "combat effectiveness" of the style (thinking of an S-curve of number of kata against effectiveness).

Considering there is only a finite amount of time to practice martial arts, having thousands of kata to learn and practice would only make you confused and incompetent in everything.
Having only a couple of kata reduces ones versatility with the weapon of choice.

There is a fine balance between breadth of curriculum, complexity of technique and time available to train. Personally I would consider that for me to learn and become competent in all of MSR including all of "kenjutsu" bits of the koryu would probably leave me no time to do Jodo as well. I am compromising my two chosen arts slightly instead of embedding and immersing myself in just one.

Why is this? The upper echelons of koryu for MSR are not available for me to learn. The lower and middle echelons of Jodo are. I am learning what is available to me.

Getting back to the main subject, chopping off a few kata does not make the system significantly less effective. If those chopped kata were either a) pretty irrelevant or unrealistic or b) contained techniques which opposed the methodology of the rest of the system, then the system may well be better off without them. The system is there to increase competence and versatility in the exponent with the weapon(s) of choice.

....but then, the technical framework of the kata i.e. the scenario which the kata is based in, is an unimportant and largely irrelevant side to the training. The development to become flexible, aware, sharp, responsive is what is important and as Peter said, these aspects are still in the system and are present to a greater or lesser degree in every single kata.

Just to be clear in my summaryl; learning excessive numbers of kata, a good swordsman does not make. It is competence in the movement and the relationship between mind, body, breath, weapon, sensory organs and environment which matters.

[Kim Taylor]

It's common knowlegde that after WW2 some combative elements where taken out of MJER, initated by the soke then. Does anyone know what's meant by that in technical terms?

Wrong question, really. The question you need to ask is "who gave me this 'common knowledge' and is it either common or correct?"

Give us the source of your initial assumption and we will quite likely be able to tell you a lot more about the subject.

Kim.

[ryoma]

Wrong question, really. The question you need to ask is "who gave me this 'common knowledge' and is it either common or correct?"

Give us the source of your initial assumption and we will quite likely be able to tell you a lot more about the subject.
Kim.

@Kim
The source is this: http://www.imaf-germany.de/Kampfkuenste/eishin-ryu.html
Unfortunately in German.
The main part:
"Laut Aussage von Hiromichi Otani Sensei (8. Dan originaler Stil und einer der Iaidomeister der IMAF) entschied sich eine Fraktion innerhalb des Eishin-Ryu den Techniken einen Teil ihrer direkten Kampfrelevanz zu nehmen und stärker zum Do zu entwickeln. Betonung liegt hier auf die Formung der Persönlichkeit durch das Do und ein Zeugnis der Friedfertigkeit nach den verheerenden Schrecken des 2. Weltkriegs abzugeben. Grossmeister dieser Richtung wurde Kono Hayakuren. Diese Fraktion bildet den heute als "populären Stil" bekannten Zweig des Ryu. Seit dem Tod von Fukui Tarao ist Ikeda Seiko der 22. Großmeister des populären Stils.

Andere Ausübende des Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu wollten ihn jedoch in seiner kampf-bezogenen Vielfalt erhalten. Sie trainierten - entgegen des Verbots der amerikanischen Verwaltung - den Stil im Verborgenen weiter. Grossmeister dieses "originalen Stils" wurde Takeshima Toshio. Die heute durch Muranaga Hidekuni repräsentierte Linie betont noch immer die Tauglichkeit der Techniken im Kampf und legt Wert darauf, dass die Kata wie unter "Kampfbedingungen" trainiert werden.

Ein weiterer, im Schaubild auf Seite 3 aufgeführter Zweig der Tanimura-ha ist die Linie unter Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa, der von den Vertretern dieser Richtung als 20. Soke des Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu betrachtet wird. Diese Linie praktiziert kein Iaido sondern Iaijutsu und ist der in [ShiLeo95] dokumentierte Stil. In den anderen beiden Linien wurde nach dem 2. Weltkrieg jegliche Ausübung des Tameshigiri (Schnitttest an Bambusballen) abgeschafft und somit der aggressive Charakter aus dem Ryu genommen. Dadurch änderte sich auch die Bezeichnung von Iaijutsu in Iaido. Da die Linie von Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa diese Entwicklung nicht mitgemacht hat, wird das Tameshigiri dort noch immer praktiziert."

Basically it explains that a group around Kono Hayakuren took out some of the combative elements in order to be able to go on with training and teaching under US occupation. Another group (Takeshima Toshio) refused to do so and kept on their "illegal" training. And a third group under todays Miura Takeyuki is not even practicing Iaido but Iaijutsu and still trains in Tameshigiri which the other two lines abolished.

[chidokan]

I see what is alluded to here...the emphasis for certain groups has shifted more to 'do' than 'jutsu', which is fine if that is what you wish to do. People who have trained with me will know I prefer to practise in a 'jutsu' style more so than 'do', it's a personal thing long term....Takeshima sensei's dojo is still very traditionally 'jutsu',although sadly he passed away shortly after I had the pleasure of being there. Iaido is what you make it, and so long as you stick to the basic framework you could still possibly have very opposite do and jutsu methods in the same dojo. It is a personal preference, and should suit your nature. For someone who is gentle , it looks odd if they try to have aggressive iai, and vice versa, and a good sensei will spot this and guide his students to suit.

[Kim Taylor]

@Kim
The source is this: http://www.imaf-germany.de/Kampfkuenste/eishin-ryu.html
Unfortunately in German.

Basically it explains that a group around Kono Hayakuren took out some of the combative elements in order to be able to go on with training and teaching under US occupation. Another group (Takeshima Toshio) refused to do so and kept on their "illegal" training. And a third group under todays Miura Takeyuki is not even practicing Iaido but Iaijutsu and still trains in Tameshigiri which the other two lines abolished.

Right, so the line that ends up with Muranaga Hidekuni is the one with the combative elements left in, after bravely challenging the occupation forces to practice illegally to preserve them.

I haven't checked yet, but:

1. Who heads up the group the author studies under?
2. Is their curriculum different than that of the other lines? The author seems to say no.
3. I notice that the author makes a distinction between iaido and iaijutsu, is there actually a distinction if you change the name?
4. The author seems to imply that the combative and the non-combative iaido is taught in his line, what does this imply? Are they differences in kata or attitude or intent?

Some things to consider.
Kim.

[Bailemor]

Here it is in English:

According to Hiromichi Otani sensei (8.) Dan original style and a Iaidomeister of IMAF) a group within the Eishin Ryu decided to take a part of their direct combat relevance the techniques and to develop the do more. Emphasizes the devastating horror of 2 here forming personality by the do and a certificate of Peaceableness after. World war make. Grand Master of this direction was Kono Hayakuren. This group is the branch of Ryu known today as "popular style". Since the death of Fukui Tarao Ikeda Seiko of the 22 is. Grand Master of the popular style.

Other perform Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu wanted to receive but it combat-related diversity. You trained further - contrary to the prohibition of the American administration - style in secret. Grand Master of this "original style" was Takeshima Toshio. The line represented today by Muranaga Hidekuni stressed still fitness techniques in the fight and attaches importance to train the kata as under "combat conditions".

The author had during a training stay in April 2002 in Japan amongst representatives of both styles to train the honour. The Kata are identical in their total Bewegungsablauf and differ in small details. But decide about fractions, or whether you are covered at a specific time or not.

Unfortunately, even the name "original style" includes a rating. The original has always claim of the authenticity over the from pattern.
The author does this not so. Both styles are equal; no "better" or "worse". Each has its full authorization in this world. The one still practised as highly efficient movements that are in a battle of crucial importance; the other example man from the horrors of war can learn its lessons and can provide a means to achieving inner peace from a method of struggle.
This paradox is the great fascination of Iaido constitutes and prohibits to evaluate here in "better" or "worse". Same applies to the comparison of different styles of IAI.
A further, listed in the chart on page 3 branch of Tanimura ha is the line under Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa, by the representatives of this direction than 20. Soke Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is considered. This line has no Iaido but iaijutsu and is style documented in [ShiLeo95]. The other two lines, 2 was after. World War abolished any exercise of Tameshigiri (bamboo bale clipping test) and thus put the aggressive nature of the Ryu. This changed the name of iaijutsu in Iaido. Because line Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa has not taken this development, the Tameshigiri practised there still.

[Peter West]

Oh no, back to this silly argument.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE

How many times does it need to be said? As Tim says, you can be combative or not in your practice. It is the combination of all practice whether it be isolated slow perfecting of technique or fast combative performance that trains you in your art. This applies to "jutsu" as much as it applies to "do" because there is no difference. Every practitioner, student and teacher (and of course all teachers are still students at their level) may from time to time emphasize different aspects. As the English translation says "This paradox is the great fascination of Iai (do[/justsu])". If you remove the paradox by professing only one side then you diminish your art by much more than 50%. iaido must always remain effective as budo. iaijutsu must discipline and develop the character. There is no difference.

[Kim Taylor]

Consider the following statement: "I practice iaido so that I can become better at killing the enemies of my Lord"

Make sense on any level at all?

Yet every line of iaido out there will state that their iaido is effective, faithful to the past and "real". That, folks is your koan for the day, Tim and Peter have set the background.

Kim.

[chidokan]

Exactly!!! You never know when the next zombie/body snatcher invasion will take place, so be prepared!

It is all relative as you will never hopefully have to use it for real...

As I have said before, my way (of life) is iaido, and my method (of practise) is iaijutsu.. similar and different at the same time, a typically japanese statement in my opinion!

[ender84567]

Exactly!!! You never know when the next zombie/body snatcher invasion will take place, so be prepared!

This is why i practice my pump action shotgun kata every morning.

[ryoma]

Exactly!!! You never know when the next zombie/body snatcher invasion will take place, so be prepared!

It is all relative as you will never hopefully have to use it for real...

As I have said before, my way (of life) is iaido, and my method (of practise) is iaijutsu.. similar and different at the same time, a typically japanese statement in my opinion!

What a really true statement!