In Defense of Jodan

[Black Knight]

chudan in nito
not great..me doing it at Mumeishis a few years back.. ( I got whomped )

as to Waza... same as regualr nito, same as regular chudan

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Emit on two points. Of course, nito is not truly standardized so he can't be "wrong" but I have another view.

1. I don't view that photo as nito chudan. This is what I see as nito chudan:

http://musashikai.jp/english-page/co...udannjuuji.jpg

...and I wouldn't recommend it against a jodan player.

2. I also find that regular nito fighting kamae of "joge-tachi" is just fine against jodan. http://musashikai.jp/english-page/co...toumigiasi.jpg

There is also a "cross style jodan" a nito player can adopt which provides a very strong defense against jodan. I cannot find a picture of it, but it involves holding the shoto and daito above the head, the shoto crossed behind the daito. this creates a strong defense and allows you to push the daito with the shoto the way a hidari-jodan player pushes with the right hand.

In any case, nito players can strike jodan players on the kote fairly easily, especially from sei-nito. And, a nito player has the shoto as a "safety net" to protect themselves if they miss, where a jodan player does not. In short, I believe nito bestows a slight advantage over jodan, assuming equally skilled players.

[emitbrownne]

.. Of course, nito is not truly standardized so he can't be "wrong" ....

Hah.. I can be wrong and often I am.

I think a key point in our differing opinions is that you use the word Defense.
I am very rarely defensive in my Nito.

The Chudan example you show is a very defensive version of Chudan. In my experience the fact that the blades are crossed, can hinder smooth movement of the shinai or body rotation.
Please dont get me wrong.. it still works and if you are unsure of your opponent I would recommend this as your openeing chudan gambit.

I think the kamae you are referring to is refrred to as Juji-Jodan no kamae or RyoJodan no Kamae?? .. and yep works great against Jodan, as long as you yourself are very familiar with Jodan. (since thats all you are really doing)

The key with Nito is flexibility.. so anyone reading this please do not think that that either Black Knight or Myself are stating fact. Everything depends upon situation, and your own experience.

Black Knight>> cheers for the feedback.

Paulo

[JSchmidt]

I don't get it either. With nito-chudan (either version) against jodan you are giving up almost all the advantages of nito and exposing all the disadvantages.
How will you (realistically) attack the jodan player?.

[Hisham]

I've got nothing to do (but work), so of course I'm making another rubbish poll-thread.

When someone takes jodan against you, what is your preferred method of defense/attack, and why?

My only experience with Jodan is against my current sensei in jigeiko, i use seigan because Neil talked about it a while back, if i'm not mistaken he posted a pic of himself showing the kamae from the front, back then i've never practiced kata #5 so thanks Neil for the tip.
I thought/think since Jodan is a 100% attack kamae and the fact that my current sensei hasn't started teaching tsuki yet, for me as a beginner going for that "far away" kote or suicide gyaku do wouldn't work at least not with my sensei, on the other hand i found that nuki waza from seigan works great, in this kamae men is a juicy bait for a jodan player, i got some nuki men, very sloppy ones but hopefully with more and more practice i'll get better especially at distance management.
For the record my sensei's not a pure jodan kendoka but when he switches to it, i do feel the difference in pressure.

[hl1978]

My only experience with Jodan is against my current sensei in jigeiko, i use seigan because Neil talked about it a while back, if i'm not mistaken he posted a pic of himself showing the kamae from the front, back then i've never practiced kata #5 so thanks Neil for the tip.
I thought/think since Jodan is a 100% attack kamae and the fact that my current sensei hasn't started teaching tsuki yet, for me as a beginner going for that "far away" kote or suicide gyaku do wouldn't work at least not with my sensei, on the other hand i found that nuki waza from seigan works great, in this kamae men is a juicy bait for a jodan player, i got some nuki men, very sloppy ones but hopefully with more and more practice i'll get better especially at distance management.
For the record my sensei's not a pure jodan kendoka but when he switches to it, i do feel the difference in pressure.

See my comment in page 1. If you feel like you aren't close enough, circle to your right while closing the distance. It makes it harder to judge if you are closing the gap or not, plus stepping to your right makes your opponents left kote seem more open.

[Hisham]

See my comment in page 1. If you feel like you aren't close enough, circle to your right while closing the distance. It makes it harder to judge if you are closing the gap or not, plus stepping to your right makes your opponents left kote seem more open.

I do you use that against chudan when i can't break my opponent's center or as a reaction to him doing the same, against my sensei's jodan, it's pretty much a reaction, it's already hard for me to feel the maai when we're not moving that much but anyway i'll try and see how it goes .

[emitbrownne]

I don't get it either. With nito-chudan (either version) against jodan you are giving up almost all the advantages of nito and exposing all the disadvantages.
How will you (realistically) attack the jodan player?.

Ok..
The easiest available target for your opponent is men, as arms cover both sides of the Do.
Tsuki is covered from chudan.
Both Kote are rotationally covered (easy to roll wrist and raise shinai- think of a kid pretending to ride a motorbike "vroom vroom")

As to what I do (well try): -
Cutting both large and small from Chudan with the diato are now available, whereas Daito in jodan only lends itself to large cutting.
Tsuki is a lot easier
suriage is a lot easier.
Kaeshi is a lot easier and a widely used option as you will recieve Men a lot.
Same as Chudan - itto, threaten tsuki and left kote.
Circle
I perefer to be wrong foot forward (to my usual stance) if I am thinking tsuki- as it give far more manoueverability options.
Right (and in my case it is the right) foot forward for sharp kote, and slip-under men cuts.

assertiveness is crucial as well.



by the way.. this is only based upon my experience and current training pattern.
I'm sure thare are better ways.. its just what I prefer

Ta

Paulo

[JSchmidt]

Yebbut..I asked how would you attack. You'll need to raise your daito before you can strike with it and by that time, the jodan player will have reacted.

[Hisham]

Unless the daito feels like a shoto to him

[emitbrownne]

Unless the daito feels like a shoto to him

I am quite a big lad and I can do quite a long suburi session with the suburito one handed


-- as to the attack
the raise is not always to a jodan position. as you are in chudan you can use the same range of cutting that chudan itto enjoys. i.e small but sharp.

One thing I'm not good at ..at the moment is debana men, against jodan from chudan nito... I'll get there one day

In a sticky situation a raise to jodan fast can be achieved by wrist rotation.

Often a jodan reaction from my opponent is what I'm after.. pile the pressure on .. or leave a trap, and suriage/keashi the cut.

The tsuki is especially good for chudan nito, as you can stike from a longer distance than you would normally expect. Wrong foot forward (my left) in Chudan, then push through the right hip/foot to carry the tsuki forward. Kick out with the left foot(now behind), and tsuki!

Cheers

Paulo

[II XShogunX II]

We have an annoying guy that constantly switches between Jodan and Chudan. He is super fast with his Men and he realy gets annoying when he starts hitting Kote or Do out of nowhere. You would see him start of in Jodan but he won't often actually attack or he will just revert back to Chudan instantly. He is a bit of a bastard and does cheap enough tricks not to get caught. He likes to go straight from a faint Men to a Do with a weird motion. I really don't like him.

Defending against one thing that you can predict or expect is at times easy. When the opponent is the most random but effective guy on the floor then it becomes hard.

[Shinsengumi77]

We have an annoying guy...I really don't like him...When the opponent is the most random but effective guy on the floor then it becomes hard.

So, you're saying that you dislike a guy because he's good? That doesn't make sense...are you super competitive?

[II XShogunX II]

I dislike the guy because he is cocky and does not respect anyone else. He is the Instuctor's son though so what can we really do. And no, not competitive at all. I end up losing 8/10 times so I can't be bothered with little ego issues. It is just that when a complete douche calls one of the female practitioners a "slut" and uses cheap tricks like near horizontal angle changes during a men cut but still scores a point, I start to dislike him.

I love it when he takes part in anything outside Dojo though. He gets called all the time for trying his underhanded bs, but as I said, the father is always watching.

[emitbrownne]

I am quite a big lad and I can do quite a long suburi session with the suburito one handed

bwhahaha ha

I trained properly for the first time since september yesterday, and it made my boastful post a lie.
Last year I could do this, yesterday I barely managed to finish the class...

Cheers

Paulo