Behaving Ourselves

[Tort-Speed]

While the Sensei and Sempai would be the rightful people to require appropriate in-dojo behavior, there can be cases where they may be
unaware of poor manners (like when concentrating hard on teaching) - or, they elect to bear it. For public dojos, was told the Sensei tolerate stuff with children, or those kids and their moms would choose another activity.
That a newcomer is aware of poor etiquette, is impressive, IMHO. Perhaps carrying on with one's own study in such an environment, leaving it to the seniors as in the proper order of things, will be a special kind of training? When seeing rudeness from the young or the not, however, 'do appreciative that somewhere along the way, I was told or by chance, on my own, had observed, the correct Way.

[David G]

Just behave correctly yourself. The ones that care will do so also.

[Halcyon]

This is the downfall of iaido - in kendo, we can be a lot, urm, clearer in our corrections of these problems...

Hehehe. Definitely.

At a dojo of a sufficient size (in terms of the number and longevity of members), it's traditionally up to the senior students to be the "enforcers." The top sensei really shouldn't have to get into this nitty gritty stuff. It can be a drag to have this responsibility thrust upon you if you're a senior student, but hey, them's the breaks. Being an enforcer also means you have to set a good example for your kohai to follow -- everything from proper etiquette when entering the dojo to dressing neatly and keeping your equipment in good condition.

Every once in a while, you'll come across a kohai whose "cup is too full." I'm not sure if a written set of rules is necessarily going to cure these folks of their inattention. It's largely a matter of patient repetition. This is part of the "training" as a sempai as well.

[Kokoro777]

The problem is with only a couple of people in the dojo and despite suggestion that they need to think about their behaviour they seem to forget about it very quickly. Repeated reinforcement doesn't seem to have an effect. I suggested a hand-out to my dojo leader as a gentle reminder since social pressure from ones peers is a powerful force in modifying behaviour. He said it was a great idea and that I should go ahead and do this as a useful learning experience and naturally he'd check it all before he hands them out. He felt I was capable of doing this because I've been involved in the martial arts (well, Karate) for 20+ years, I'm a mature, polite, resourceful person of good standing in the community etc etc.... (I'm virtually a saint )

Being a Sempai isn't about ones grade (one of our highest graded members is a 15 year old boy in every sense of the word) just as being an instructor doesn't automatically make one a 'Sensei'.

I think our dojo must be quite 'progressive' in attitude in that there's no silly shouting, screaming and barking of orders or enforcing of rules like a teacher may have to at school because most of us do as is expected of us and behave impeccably-there's just one person who seems incapable of doing so-yes its just one person in reality who seems resistant.

So, does anyone have any suggestions that I can out forward for inspection by my dojo leader?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Being a Sempai isn't about ones grade

Well, actually it is. Or rather, it's about seniority. If someone started in the dojo before you and is higher ranked, he's your sempai.

And speaking of etiquette, you'll note that nobody else around here uses coloured text.

[shred_lord]

He said it was a great idea and that I should go ahead and do this as a useful learning experience and naturally he'd check it all before he hands them out.

Why did you not say this at the start.

being an instructor doesn't automatically make one a 'Sensei'.

I what sense may I ask?

[Big One]

The etiquette is more of reinforcing the appreciation of the dojo. Many people will eventually realilze that and will follow the path well. However if you talk about children, that is a different story. You just have to acknowledge that kids will be kids.

Talking about etiquette, one time I jigeiko with another guy in the dojo. I was nidan and he was shodan. At the begining, I murmured "you are dead meat" and he said "your head is mine", and suddenly there was a sandan guy came over and chewing us for doing that. He started to talk about etiquette, seriousness in kendo, blah blah blah. Guess what, he was kicked out the dojo for doing something stupid regarding about the dojo against the sensei warning. According to other sensei, his kendo sucked too. My point is etiquette is something you have to appreciate, not just talk.

[Kaoru]

Talking about etiquette, one time I jigeiko with another guy in the dojo. I was nidan and he was shodan. At the begining, I murmured "you are dead meat" and he said "your head is mine", and suddenly there was a sandan guy came over and chewing us for doing that. He started to talk about etiquette, seriousness in kendo, blah blah blah.

I'm still not feeling good enough(been sick all week.) to make a half decent comment on this discussion, but I have to say, that what you guys said to each other made me laugh! And, it made me wonder what Samurai said to each other when they were going to fight each other. I don't think every fight was polite and without words.... Anyway, aside from that, it's not like you guys were yelling it at each other! It was all in fun. Besides wanting ippon, right? I don't know why you'd get yelled at for it. You can't be going, Oh, would you like a cup of tea? before attacking someone. That's not being strong and showing a fighting spirit.

And I have to ask, since I haven't had a chance to fight anyone myself, is it really considered rude to do that? Just wondering... I mean, if one was intending to be rude, that's one thing, but, if it was like what you guys did?

Sorry for thread drift... Just was curious.

Kaoru

[Halcyon]

And I have to ask, since I haven't had a chance to fight anyone myself, is it really considered rude to do that? Just wondering... I mean, if one was intending to be rude, that's one thing, but, if it was like what you guys did?

There's a time and place for everything. You have to figure out who you can joke around with, and who likes to keep things serious. Nothing wrong with a bit of levity. Just have to read the situation correctly.

[Kaoru]

There's a time and place for everything. You have to figure out who you can joke around with, and who likes to keep things serious. Nothing wrong with a bit of levity. Just have to read the situation correctly.

Oh, ok. I see! That makes sense. Thank you very much for answering my question.

Kaoru

[1stdan]

Karou. I have guys (and gals) in my dojo that i talk to a little during Keiko. Stuff Like "nice kote" "great shot" and even some that talk back to me. The whole time tho I am trying to do my best, I always listen first and maybe sneak in a word or two. There are keiko partners i wouldn't dream of talking too as well. You just have to read the room so to speak. A lot of what i hear is sempai telling me what to do and not do. and me saying thanks. If it were dead serious 100% of the time i prolly would not be there.

[Kaoru]

Karou. I have guys (and gals) in my dojo that i talk to a little during Keiko. Stuff Like "nice kote" "great shot" and even some that talk back to me. The whole time tho I am trying to do my best, I always listen first and maybe sneak in a word or two. There are keiko partners i wouldn't dream of talking too as well. You just have to read the room so to speak. A lot of what i hear is sempai telling me what to do and not do. and me saying thanks. If it were dead serious 100% of the time i prolly would not be there.

Thanks 1stdan-san!

It's interesting to see how it changes a little when you are no longer just the person doing the attacking. I just hear what to fix and sometimes what I actually did right or told to try to do this or that better... or, just to move faster! Then I say hai! and then thank you when appropriate. Otherwise, it is just my place to do as asked and don't talk. It's all fun for me! Being dead serious doesn't really bother me much. I just like to practice!

Kaoru

[Kokoro777]

And speaking of etiquette, you'll note that nobody else around here uses coloured text.

[Kokoro777]

Why did you not say this at the start.

Because I didn't think my post would meet with such consternation.

I what sense may I ask?

It comes from something I read in Dave Lowry's brilliant 'Persimmon Wind' (pp.107-109, Koryu Books, first hardcover version 2005). He begins-

'In budo dojo in the United States and elsewhere outside Japan, the term "Sensei" or even "master" is used loosely. Often, the person leading a class during any given session or anyone who opens a school for studying the martial arts is referred to by students by one of those titles. In Japan, this aspect of the martial ways is subject to to a more strict governance....[national organizations] are stringent about the process for becoming a formally-recognized teacher of the art [Iaido]...'

He goes on to mention several highly graded Iaidoka in the dojo he's practising in, with decades of experience for who the term of 'Sensei' etc is never used because they haven't been officially given it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

And yet it continues... just like dojo etiquette, one should look around here and see what the norms are.

As far as the term "sensei" goes, in Japan it is often used for anyone who is teaching you - could be a high school teacher, whatever. "Sensei" denotes a relationship, not really a formal title. In Canada it is slightly more formalized in that we don't usually use that term for someone under 4th dan. However if someone lower ranked is in charge of their dojo, then they certainly could be considered sensei. So for example, I have friends who teach in other dojos. Their students may call them sensei or maybe they just use their names. Most people under godan aren't all that comfortable yet with being called sensei. For that matter, a lot of godan aren't either. If you have someone lower-ranked who insists on being called sensei, that's usually an ego problem even though technically the relationship is one of teacher-student.

If I refer to these people in front of their students and they are yondan and up I will say "X-sensei" or "Y-sensei". But addressing them directly I will just call them by name because they are not my sensei. But there are those senior teachers whom I always refer to as sensei even though I am not their student directly. In Canada those are typically people 7 dan or higher, or some senior 6 dans (not me). I might even refer to people whom I've never met as sensei, for example Miyazaki-sensei. It's a sign of respect and acknowledgement of his position in the kendo world, even though he is not my teacher.

In other words, it's a little bit complicated. Most of my students just call me Neil.