Kiai

[A. Henriksson]

Here´s something I asked recently at another forum (haven´t got much response there yet):

"The ki is self evident but there is no actual Kiai. Even in Kendo is overdone a lot and some people are far too verbal."
-quote from Hyakutake Colin from swordforum. (First sentence NOT about kendo.)

How often should one use kiai in kendo? At issoku-itto? At tsubazeriai? As one move in to attack? Or only when hitting the target?

One guy in my dojo has gone kiai crazy. He even uses kiai while putting on the gi, in the shower or just while walking around in the dojo!

By the way: do the rules say that the right kiai (men while striking men) is always needed in order to get ippon?

[Ian Russell]

Originally posted by A. Henriksson
One guy in my dojo has gone kiai crazy. He even uses kiai while putting on the gi, in the shower or just while walking around in the dojo!

LOL. There's no substitute for practice I suppose

[sminki]

As far as I know, there isn't a set rule on kiai. I think as a more general rule, one should kiai when one need's to display and project one's ki. Typically those moments will be at the start of geiko, shiai, tsubazeriai. I do think that there are drawbacks to kiaiing too much.

Miyamoto Musashi puts it pretty well in his Book of Five Rings. He divides the kiai in three types: the initial, middle and the end. What's interesting is that the section is called the "Three Shouts" but he only talks of the three shouts in the context of warfare. In the context of a swordfight, Musashi suggests that there are only two shouts: the beginning and the end. He specifically states that one should not shout while striking an opponent. I don't believe that this is in conflict with ki ken tai no ichi as I suspect that Musashi means one should not kiai when moving in to strike. So, to me (as I interpret), one should (1) kiai at the beginning of a shiai/geiko/match, etc., (2) kiai at the moment of striking to achieve ki ken tai no ichi and to signify the successful end/execution of a proper strike.

I hope this makes some sense and if anyone thinks that I have misinterpreted Musashi, I'd love to further my education on this matter.

[supernils]

Dear sminki please sign your posts with your full name as this is a rule of this forum.

[mad_god]

As far as I know, there isn't a set rule on kiai. I think as a more general rule, one should kiai when one need's to display and project one's ki. Typically those moments will be at the start of geiko, shiai, tsubazeriai. I do think that there are drawbacks to kiaiing too much.

Miyamoto Musashi puts it pretty well in his Book of Five Rings. He divides the kiai in three types: the initial, middle and the end. What's interesting is that the section is called the "Three Shouts" but he only talks of the three shouts in the context of warfare. In the context of a swordfight, Musashi suggests that there are only two shouts: the beginning and the end. He specifically states that one should not shout while striking an opponent. I don't believe that this is in conflict with ki ken tai no ichi as I suspect that Musashi means one should not kiai when moving in to strike. So, to me (as I interpret), one should (1) kiai at the beginning of a shiai/geiko/match, etc., (2) kiai at the moment of striking to achieve ki ken tai no ichi and to signify the successful end/execution of a proper strike.

I hope this makes some sense and if anyone thinks that I have misinterpreted Musashi, I'd love to further my education on this matter.

You must understand the purpose of Kiai.
If you have spirit enough there is no need to shout it aloud during strike or even in the beginning or ending.
Kendo needs "kiai" because they must know where the player attacked and score points. Beginners must use kiai because they are dumbs and don't know what means spirit enough.
Your argument that people must have Kiai during the strike is pathetic as you are claiming Kenjutsu or even Iai are not doing the kikentainoichi stuff.
More shugyou is needed.

MAD GOD

[kimkatami]

Here is a story about kiai. A true story from Beijing, China in 1930`s.

The Master and Founder of the Chinese Art of Da Cheng Chuan (jap. Taikiken)
Master Wang Chiang Chai was challenged to participate in a match where practitioners of different arts took part. In those days it was tough, to put it simply.
Master Wang stepped into the fighting area and the match with some challenger began. However the challenger could not approach Master Wang and many other challengers tried it also. Nobody could approach him!

That is kiai.

- Kibu

[mad_god]

Here is a story about kiai. A true story from Beijing, China in 1930`s.

The Master and Founder of the Chinese Art of Da Cheng Chuan (jap. Taikiken)
Master Wang Chiang Chai was challenged to participate in a match where practitioners of different arts took part. In those days it was tough, to put it simply.
Master Wang stepped into the fighting area and the match with some challenger began. However the challenger could not approach Master Wang and many other challengers tried it also. Nobody could approach him!

That is kiai.

- Kibu

Wrong.
That's "KI".
Obviously the master's "KI-gurai" was working in this story.

MAD GOD

[kimkatami]

Wrong.
That's "KI".
Obviously the master's "KI-gurai" was working in this story.

According to Omori Sogen Roshi, who was a master in Zen, Ken and Sho
(his sword- schools we`re Kashima Shinden Jikishin Kage Ryu and Mugai Ryu Iaido) this exactly is kiai.
He writes that " Zen is the art of kiai".

There obviously are definitions, which of I don`t have any clue of, for this and that but all these terms miss the essential point, the actual experience.

- Kibu

[Anjin-san]

Mad God, why rat on a thread thats 3 YEARS OLD? And how is it that everyone I know who practices kendo kiai's when they strike?

[mad_god]

According to Omori Sogen Roshi, who was a master in Zen, Ken and Sho
(his sword- schools we`re Kashima Shinden Jikishin Kage Ryu and Mugai Ryu Iaido) this exactly is kiai.
He writes that " Zen is the art of kiai".

There obviously are definitions, which of I don`t have any clue of, for this and that but all these terms miss the essential point, the actual experience.

- Kibu

You're right.
It's meaningless discuss definitions.
It's very simple in reality.
Have you practiced with a 8 dan hanshi and kyoushi.
Kyoushi = Kiai
Hanshi = Kigurai

[mad_god]

Mad God, why rat on a thread thats 3 YEARS OLD? And how is it that everyone I know who practices kendo kiai's when they strike?

The fact you overcome the wall of Kiai doens't mean it can be forgot.
Besides, new comers always will have the chance to read this thread.
And if you mean "kiai when they strike" the shouting stuff, I know many they don't scream aloud, some neither do it.
The shouting is just a "appearance" of what you have inside.
You can show it, or not.
But it's different if you just don't have it.
That's a different issue...

MG

[Anjin-san]

I agree with what you're saying (i.e. that you can shout and still not kiai) but I've never seen it before. I have however seen people who are very quiet have a lot of kiai though, but only one and he's a 6th dan.

For me, I try cut and shout as big as possible from the hara as it connects.

[mad_god]

I agree with what you're saying (i.e. that you can shout and still not kiai) but I've never seen it before. I have however seen people who are very quiet have a lot of kiai though, but only one and he's a 6th dan.

For me, I try cut and shout as big as possible from the hara as it connects.

Your doing in the right way.
Just be careful what "kind" of kiai you're doing.
Only shouting not necessary is the correct way to do that.
But anyway, it's the beginning...
Peace.

MG