yeah... suppose you're right...
yeah... suppose you're right...
it's a case of people tell you not to worry about this or that because it's above your present level. You go to Shinsa and they are looking for what people told you not to worry about.
"Fight For the point! Want the point! Then once you've taken it, be greedy & want another!" -- My Sensei
Hello RaffaOriginally Posted by Raffa
It's not that higher grades are reducing your options and forcing you to attack a target they want you to attack. That's your own mental belief. With that kind of mental thought process, the aite has complete control over you. When you face aites at your level, you try different forms of seme. You can do the same thing with more advanced kenshis also. Don't take this the wrong way, because I mean no offense by it, but you need to expand your bag of goodies. Experienced kenshis maintain a strong center. You must know how to cut through it. That's what harai waza and osae waza is designed for. If you can execute a harai men/kote or a osae men just as fast as your regular men or kote, i guarantee you that your seme will be a lot more effective.
If you learn only one for form of oji waza that you can execute with confidence, your seme will become even more effective. If you can execute dekote with complete confidence your seme becomes stronger yet. There are two aspects of seme, maai, and tame. Physical and mental. And this applies to you and the aite. There is a cause and effect when you apply these elements. How this happens depends on your knowledge of waza and your ability to execute from various distances. Like I said earlier the more waza you know how to apply the stronger your seme will become. That is a fact. (If you can execute six different wazas to the aites five, you have a slight advantage.) Striking with good mechanics will also have an affect on the aite. Not just the aite but the people in line to keiko with you.
The bottom line is, the bigger threat you are to the aite, the more effective your seme becomes. This applies to every level of kendo.
In regards to tame, if I fight an aite who strikes at random, then tame is not applicable in this situation. All you need to do is recognize (Half second control of the aite.) when he attacks an oji. Aites who attack at random are very predictable. If you oji waza the aite two or three times, they'll stop, and confusion and doubt will set in. You can see it in their face as you seme in.
When I face experienced kenshis, tame is always used. This is because experienced kenshis know some form of oji waza, so you just can't attack without thought.
At this stage of the game tame is very important because through tame makes it possible for you to create opportunities and control the opponent in short instances. You can't control the aite from attacking you, but you can control the aite for a half second if you recognize he's about to attack.
You're correct in the way you describe the build up of pressure between kenshis. You don't have to be psychic to know two things are going to happen. Either you're going to attack first or the aite is. I don't know if this babble helps you in anyway, but feel free to ask me any questions you might have, and I'll do my best to answer.
Oyasumi Raffa
Until I read this thread I admit to having never even heard of the concept of tame. I tried to figure it out from the posts but I'm still confused.
Are we talking about something like communication between the two kenshi? Can you build tame like you build a conversation (sort of)?
Anyone have a straight forward definition?
Alexander Monteil
McGill University Kendo Club
From Japanese.English dictionary- When producing a waza, the condition of being composed both mentally and physically and maintaining a spiritually replete state...
My personal definition is a state where you are ready to attack like a compressed spring. The moment you decide to go, you will be able to attack with absolute determination and with all your available energy/skill. You could have attacked earlier but you restrained yourself from just launching a random attack and therefore you are able to deliver the best you can do when you decide it is the correct moment.
Not sure whether my personal definition is any better...
YMMV
Cesare
It appears that my comprehension of the argument is still wrong.
Before I tryed to describe a paradigm (simplest significative example), someone can add his/her personal one?
Much to think about!
A video of the exam exist, I will try to post it if I can.
All your definitions are independent from having or not the initiative,I like it...
"Time is the best teacher, it's a shame that in the end he kills all his students.."
http://muganokai.forumattivo.com/forum.htm
the simplest way I know of defining tame is when you and aite are both in a heightened state of mental and physical tension.. wanting to attack but holding back as both of you try to "will" the other to move first/break kamae/etc. at this point, the kensen might be anywhere from to-ma to just outside of yokote-no-maai, and as you approach yokote-no-maai and move towards issoku-itto-no-maai, this is the area where you are really trying to apply pressure, read your opponent, determine what he is doing, control him, force him to move first, etc. .....the "time" it takes to go from point A (apply pressure) to point B (forcing him to move first) is where tame is "building"...
(that might not be the very best way of articulating it)
.... anyway this is what folks will often refer to as "a building up of pressure/tension between opponents"....
maybe that helps?
Last edited by tango; 18th June 2010 at 12:14 AM.
that description works pretty good for me, too..
during tame, one of two things is going to happen ---- either aite's seme is going to overwhelm you and force you to commit to an attack at an inopportune time or your seme is going to overwhelm aite and force him to attack at an inopportune time.
as cesare points out, both you and aite --- during this time --- are in a constant state of being 'ready to attack, compressed like a coiled spring waiting to be released' .... you are telling yourself, 'attack attack attack' but physically, you're holding yourself back, waiting for the first indication that let's you know you need to explode into attack.
Last edited by tango; 18th June 2010 at 12:23 AM.
Rereading the thread, I think I may see where Raffa was going and where we went instead... We've been talking about seme and tame but we may actually have to talk about sen... Seme and then tame allows us to execute a good cut. On the other hand, Raffa was also talking about creating tame when aite has already executed seme. When I was talking about seme-ashi and neutralizing aite's seme with mine, I sort of addressed the issue of sen insofar as talking about seme and tame on both sides where both are looking for an opportunity to strike. Either the opportunity is really there and I execute a successful shikake waza or it's not and I get hit with an oji waza...
If the question is about tame when my aite has sen, then I will fall back on a lesson that was hammered into us by Kim In Bum a couple of weeks ago: you cannot execute a good cut if your aite has the initiative. If your aite manages to break your kamae with his seme, it is unlikely that you will be able to regroup quickly enough to get tame and then cut first. If your aite breaks your kamae and gets inside, you will need to either deflect his attack and counter-attack (ie: techniques such as men-kaeshi-do or kote-suriage-men) or let him exhaust his attack and then attack (ie: techniques such as men-nuki-men or kote-nuki-men). Tame is relevant insofar as you will still need to be a coiled spring ready to unload onto your aite but the key point is timing and sequentiality. If your aite attacks first, you can cut him off before he really gets into his technique (debana), deflect his attack if he manages to unload and you are quicker than him or let it peter out and then hit him if he is quicker than you. At this point, we're back to how do we cut effectively: with tame. And how do we build tame? I guess I'd say keep practcing....
Raffa, am I close to what you were looking for? If I am, I guess the only answer is to keep working at understanding timing and then develop a warbag to exploit the different moments. A good variety of techniques, as G-Chan said, will enable you to get the tame you want as you will be able to see the appropriateness of using one rather than another technique. At that point you will see multiple opportunities and will therefore not be frailing out at random.
YMMV....
Cesare
Tame(ru), in my understanding is basically a "build up" or the act of storing. So here, it is a buildup to a hit. So imagine a spring being compressed. There is energy stored due to spring being compressed. When the constraint is lifted and the spring is allowed to suddenly expand, the energy is released as kinetic energy. Think of that spring as your legs. You have to decide when to lift that constraint and spring yourself towards your opponent.
my $0.02(US)
See, my take on that, is that that spring should always be ready. (Mentally and physically). There is no build up. The moment you are in kamae, you are(should be) ready to go.
From there, it's finding the right opportunity to go, but that can happen in the first second or a minute later.
Maybe it's something I picked up from my jodan practice. There, you don't have the protection of the chudan kamae, whilst you get ready to go. In jodan, you will expose your self and the only way to protect that, is to be ready from the get-go. Otherwise it wont work and you'll get taken apart.
it's not your mental or physical preparedness that "builds up".... it is everything else that builds up to the moment of exploding into attack.
when you and aite are trying to overwhelm each other with your seme there is an increase in tension. You and your opponent are both feeling each other out and both of you feel anxious... or a tension... to attack. You might say to yourself, "why isn't he attacking? Should I attack? Should I attack NOW? ... ok,, NOW?.... ... NOW?!??" And the opponent is hopefully being affected by your seme in a similar fashion.
THAT is the "build-up" that I think the rest of us are talking about... doesn't really have anything to do with an ever-increasing state of "mental/physical preparedness".... I mean, either you're prepared to attack or you're not.
YMMV
You can maintain a constant level of mental and physical preparedness to go at any moment... what is "increasing" or "building up" is actually anxiety (either your anxiety or the opponent's) during the "waiting to explode into attack." .... or rather, it's not that your mental/physical preparedness
oops ... unable to edit and delete that last paragraph from the previous post... oh well..
stupid t'storms knocking out power...
No, I don't get that. I attack because I think there's an opportunity or because the opponent pushes me into an attack. The interval is irrelevant in that regard. The time duration becomes more about concentration (lack of concentration will create an opening) rather than increased tension.
Occasionally, against teachers especially, I'll end up attacking out of frustration, but again, that's lack of concentration rather than a build-up of tension.
Then you're unusual - impatience is a common problem for people.
Tame is a build up towards an end - the attack. By definition, it is not a constant thing.
Neil Gendzwill
Saskatoon Kendo Club
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