Building Tame when your aite take the initiative by seme

[JSchmidt]

Then you're unusual - impatience is a common problem for people.

Tame is a build up towards an end - the attack. By definition, it is not a constant thing.

Oh, I get impatient, but I describe that as a lapse of concentration rather than an increase in tension causing me to attack when there's no opportunity.

[samurai999]

No, I don't get that. I attack because I think there's an opportunity or because the opponent pushes me into an attack. The interval is irrelevant in that regard. The time duration becomes more about concentration (lack of concentration will create an opening) rather than increased tension.
Occasionally, against teachers especially, I'll end up attacking out of frustration, but again, that's lack of concentration rather than a build-up of tension.

Interesting that you say "because the opponent pushes me into an attack". I thought that is how the match is controlled at the higher level? One kenshi being able to make the other person fall into a trap or do an action that the other can counter with a waza. I guess you can call it a setup to a strike.

[MikeW]

There is an interesting piece on seme and tame on the BKA site at:

http://kendo.org.uk/articles/about-t...seme-and-tame/

[JSchmidt]

There is an interesting piece on seme and tame on the BKA site at:

http://kendo.org.uk/articles/about-t...seme-and-tame/

Yeah, that matches more with my experiences.

Tame is a period of “active waiting”, of observation and assessment. Time suspended in order to unleash the attack with a suitable sutemi.

No mention of 'build-up' anywhere

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I agree with JSchmidt here, in any occassion, if your anxiety or tension builds up it´s a flaw in your mental status, probably due to the effect of your aite´s seme on you ...and I think that´s just an expression of one of the four sicknesses.

If there´s anything building up in you, it´s knowledge of your opponent by observation and assesment through different forms of seme which should take you to the right chance to attack with proper sutemi, and releasing the "energy" or let´s say readiness that´s been present from the first moment. Regarding the ways to creating or crafting those situations... I´d say it´s pretty much unrestricted, but, summed up by the classic "san satsu ho".

[hyuna]

No mention of 'build-up' anywhere

I don't know if it is what I interpret as being "tame" but the sense of "build up" that I get comes from the fact that I'm not good enough to simply move directly to optimal position and shift totally into "observing and assessing" mode. I make kamae and then I'm physically ready to go, but the distance is not quite right and I'm not quite in sync with my opponent and even though I could go, my balance isn't quite at 100%, and so on, so I feel that if my opponent blinks right now, maybe I have a 50% shot of making the strike I want. Now I'm looking for how to get to 60%, then to 70%, then to 80%, etc, working by changing what I'm doing in relation to what my opponent is doing. So I feel that there is a building up of pressure since the pressure on my opponent (presumably) increases as I improve my position, and the pressure on me increases if my position worsens. So I feel an ebb and flow between myself and my opponent at all times, and pressure waxes and wanes with it.

Impatience plays a role for me because I don't want to go from 50 to 60 to 70 to 80 to 90 to 95 to 98 to 99. I want to go from 50 to 100. But, of course, big aggressive movements are dangerous. Or, I don't want to take the time to read my opponent to see what I should do to improve my chances, and I go with something generic and ill-advised instead. Thus, my impatience produces openings for my opponent.

[Bokushingu]

I really Like Mike's Link & G-chan's post. It seems sometime too much thought put into something really simple & natural. If you don't rush & just attack after you apply seme, tame will naturally occur. Stay focused & in a position in which you can apply the appropiate action/waza once your opponent reacts to the seme. you can see tame in use in every kendo match...even the kyus & they don't even know what tame is...

somewhere i read, "do not attach a waza to seme." if you don't do that, Tame occurs naturally without thought.

[AlexM]

Thank you all for the various definitions.

[G-CHAN]

I don't know if it is what I interpret as being "tame" but the sense of "build up" that I get comes from the fact that I'm not good enough to simply move directly to optimal position and shift totally into "observing and assessing" mode.

Hello Arthur,

You learn how to observe and assess (tame) as a motodachi in kihon keiko. This is where you learn how to time oji waza. I'd like to expand my thoughts on what I said earlier about attacking based on recognizing certain signals I get from the aite. Your interpretations may very but mine are for.....

Shikake waza...hesitations or pauses (doubt and confusion). If the aite hesitates i attack kote, men or doh. If there's a pause, I'll either shikake or if I feel that I'm being suckered in I'll use harai or osae to avoid counters.

Oji waza....I was taught that there's always an opportunity to score. The opportunity is either created by you or the aite. If the aite attacks and the only thing you did was block, you just missed the opportunity to oji. When I enter issoku maai, I always have 2 options, proactive strikes or counters. I remember as a kid in summer camps sensei would say " If someone attacks you with a katana, are you just going to block? You must always have the mindset to attack. One cut, one kill."

You see, the only difference between shikake and oji is timing. When you attack depends on the intent or the mistakes by the aite. There 's very little differences in mechanics of waza, the execption being kaeshi waza. For example, the mechanics should be the same for kote and dekote, harai men and men suriage men or nuki doh and men nuki doh.

Going back to what you should focus on as a motodachi in kihon keiko...

1) You should have the same attacking mindset in kihon keiko as you do in jigeiko, shiai and shinsa.

2) You are not a live uchikomidai. Focus on the eyes and body movement of the kakarite. Focus on maai, do you see an opportunity to attack at that particular distance? You could seme in and see how the kakarite responds. This is where you learn to recognize when aites attacks.

3) You should have the same mindset when your the kakarite. Just because everything is preset is the wrong attitude to have. There's a lot more to kihon than just learning techniques. The only difference between kihon and jigeiko/ shiai/ shinsa is that you have a free pass to strike.

Hope this helps and have a happy 4th.

[hyuna]

Hope this helps and have a happy 4th.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Even though what you describe is "textbook," I am not sure if, practically speaking, learning timing through uchikomi works so well. The problem is that very few people have the attitude you describe in (3), on either side, so very few people have the same spirit during keiko or shiai as they do during drills, so the feeling, the appearance, and the tempo is dramatically different.

I think one should definitely try their best to learn everything they can from kihon and to use the correct attitude, and it will work well if everyone does everything "properly," but at the same time I think there is a practical barrier to relying on it as the primary method for learning timing. Therefore, I think it is better to use practice drills that are specifically targeted to develop a good sense of timing.

[JSchmidt]

Geoff Salmon actually touched on this in his blog:

http://kendoinfo.net/

[tango]

Jakob,

I don't think what is in that article is really substantively different than what some of us were trying to articulate previously.

The article notes:

“you should approach the opponent in the spirit of, “I am cutting now” and wait for his or her reaction to determine which target to strike.”

and

“Tame” is the interval between approaching and striking where you determine your opponent’s next step and choose your target.

Perfectly in line with my understanding of things (as much as that matters to anybody around here).
Where the concept of "building up" or "tension" comes into play, inasmuch as I can articulate my own understanding of tame, is during "the interval between approaching and striking". To use a very simple example, during this time, my opponent is being affected by my seme. His anxiety (read: "anxiousness") is increasing. He may be feeling an increase in nervousness. His comfort level is becoming more and more unstable because he feels pressure from me. He doesn't know what I'm going to do but he feels that I'm about to do something. At any moment. His desire to attack in the face of being "hunted" by me gradually increases to a point where he feels he MUST attack.

I don't know if you would agree with me on this or not. Maybe your disagreement on previous pages in this thread is really just a disagreement in semantics. I'm not sure. All I know is that my understanding, as described above, is what it is based on how it's been described to me by as many American 4.dans as Japanese 7.dans.

I'm not trying to say your take on this is wrong, but just offering my opinion as food for thought.

[G-CHAN]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Even though what you describe is "textbook," I am not sure if, practically speaking, learning timing through uchikomi works so well. The problem is that very few people have the attitude you describe in (3), on either side, so very few people have the same spirit during keiko or shiai as they do during drills, so the feeling, the appearance, and the tempo is dramatically different.

I think one should definitely try their best to learn everything they can from kihon and to use the correct attitude, and it will work well if everyone does everything "properly," but at the same time I think there is a practical barrier to relying on it as the primary method for learning timing. Therefore, I think it is better to use practice drills that are specifically targeted to develop a good sense of timing.

I agree with you Arthur. Everyone needs to be on the same page to benefit from this.
When we were told this stuff during summer camp, it was a light bulb moment for me because we were having such a difficult time with the timing of oji waza. Especially me, I was completely clueless. My thought process was like everyone else, you just need to be faster than your opponent to win.

Looking back, this is what I basically would do in kihon keiko. When we practiced small men uchi, I would pace myself like I would for big men uchi. ie. I would start from toma, step into issoku and strike. I did the same for kote and doh uchi. It's like I would count to 3, and then strike. There's nothing wrong with what I was doing because I was focusing on my mechanics. The problem was, at my skill level at the time, the mental part of the waza was lacking. I wasn't practicing the waza with a attacking mindset. In other words, in jigeiko, shinsa and shiai, I don't normally count to 3 and then strike.

This is one of the reasons why we were told the role of the motodachi is so important for the kakarite. The other reason being what I described earlier in my last post.

Anyway, this is just my experience learning the concept of timing. Good luck to you Arthur.

[Raffa]

Well, since I start this thread, my view on the argument changed very much. Thank you for all the advice given.Things seems to be now more clear (I hope).
Let me try to sort what I think I had understand. Please forgive any error I may be doing.

In the last year my training focused on applying a "basic" seme, so as I was entering in the aite mae I start searching for openings to use. In few words, while I wouldn't know in advance what I would hit, it was mainly a shikake waza training. It wasn't wrong, but it used an hidden hypothesis, that I always had initiative. Obviously in a real combat this is not always true, it's only an half of the whole, my point of view was uncomplete.
Now, as it seems that I have understand it, as you apply seme, is still correct not to know what will happen (in other words not to try to achieve a pre-ordered action), but simply I shouldn't only try to see the aite openings (as I would done before), but, as an alternative, try to see the start of an aite attack (and use a suitable waza). Both the shikake and the oji waza shouldn't be pre-ordered.
The difference, as I have perceived it, is mainly in the mental/spiritual state. To do it properly I must be more "fluid", more neutral. It is a false "waiting" feeling.
I say "false" because, while is true that the time between the start of the seme, and the appearing of the aite opening/start of aite attack can be of any amount, I am not "waiting", but searching. In this time, which can be very little interval or a very large one, the tame developed. I try to stay neutral between two opposite feelings, "do something now!" and "wait for a clear opportunity".
If the first prevail the result is a rush attack.
If the second prevail the result is waiting to much.
Maybe I oversimplify a complex concept, but this is what I could grasp at my level....

[tango]

Raffa,

I think you are very much on the right track. Personally, I find the the longer I do kendo and the more I learn, the more difficult it is to describe, verbally, what I understand _____________ to mean (e.g., seme, tame, etc.).

On a side note, your point about "false waiting"... I understand what you are saying, and when I reached the same conclusion, that's when I think I really understood the difference between "waiting" and "being patient."