Expressing ki -- kendo vs. other martial arts

[ender84567]

Also, just because something is mysterious and elusive, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I had a college roommate who used to say he didn't believe in quantum physics because he couldn't see the protons and elections, etc. If you're going to use that standard, there are a lot of things in the world that one can't believe in. Certainly, some things are mysterious and elusive because they're bogus. Others might be so because one lacks the tools to understand them properly. I suppose the trick is to figure out which one is which.

'what is the temperature of love? what does a photon weight?'

[JByrd]

I don't think of ki in mysterious terms, but only the simple economics of energy: how and when it is built up, and spent.

But I suppose that there is something mysterious, or at least marvelous, in the metaphysics of energy. It is eternal -- it can't be created or destroyed, only transformed and exchanged. It can't be located at any specific place in the body, but the evidence of its existence is undeniable: we can think, feel, decide, act, and affect the world around us.

[hl1978]

Shortly later, he goes on to add: "The sensation of ki is intensified when speculative self-consciousness is pushed into the background. This happens to varying degrees depending on how much people are willing to let go of their ego in deferring to what surrounds them. If ego is reinforced, the sensation of ki diminishes."

I'm not quite sure what is mean by this. Does the author mean that people need to listen/feel what is going on around them? By pushing self-consciousness in the background, you aren't supposed to feel what is going on in your own body? If it is the later, that seems counter intuitive to what you are supposed to be working on in ki development exercises, such as karate's sanchin, Tohei's Ki-society tests etc.

If it is the former, I would agree to some extent given some of the previous discussion to what it feels like to "apply"ki before a strike. However,if you are working on some of the above listed development exercises, or trying to apply some of the exercises, you worry less about what your opponent/partner is doing and instead listen/feel what is going on in your own body.

Does the author discuss sanchin much? That would actually be interesting to discuss how the concepts of sanchin map over to kendo, since they aren't unique to karate.

[UnimportantHero]

I recall one time when I walked into the room and one student immediately stood out to me, even though he wasn't doing anything but looking at his textbook. There was a very intense feel about him and the other tutors didn't even want to approach him to see if he needed help. Not many people have that kind of presence but when you meet someone like that, you can't help but notice. I think that is also ki even though it's not quite the same feeling as the ki you experience in martial arts.

It is the same deal with theater actors who have stage presence. Someone walks out on the stage - sometimes even just an ensemble actor - and immediately upstages everyone without effort, because eyes are just drawn to them, emotional responses to their performance are stronger and so forth. It is a kinda super presence, and I agree with the "that is also ki but different" sentiment.

[hugo]

It is the same deal with theater actors who have stage presence. Someone walks out on the stage - sometimes even just an ensemble actor - and immediately upstages everyone without effort, because eyes are just drawn to them, emotional responses to their performance are stronger and so forth. It is a kinda super presence, and I agree with the "that is also ki but different" sentiment.

As a trained actor, let me say that this observation is right on the money. And guess how a vast majority of theatre schools teach people to do this? Tai Chi.

And just like Kendo people having a hard time grasping the ki concept, it takes a LOT of actors a long time to stop being self-conscious. It's only when they learn to let go and sort of merge their ki/chi with that of their surroundings that they can then learn to project it outwards into what most people call stage presence.

But this use of it is not quite the same as it is with Kendo. In acting, there is no one else forcing their chi/ki/energies out back at you. The audience passively takes it in. So, even though I've had a good deal of training in this one aspect, that training was absolutely useless when it came time to dealing with things like seme, which is in no way a passive expression of anything.

I'm throwing all this out there in support of
1) Ki exists.
2) It’s complicated.

[jbtutor]

Hello, new member. I wanted to chime in because I have written an article about the Asian concept of Chi. (My father asked me what the difference between chi and ki is. I replied, "There is no difference. Same Chinese character; different pronunciations.") The article was first published on Technorati.com but can be found at a new blog I've started, right here. A native Chinese speaker found it to be a good explanation, so I feel good about that.

In short, Chi/ Ki is a figurative concept referring to very real physical forces.

[MartialArtsGirl]

I'd suspect he does use ki even with noobs, because at least part of your training is to develop some sensitivity to it. If you never do, you won't learn how to make that connection with your partner and you won't be able to develop much of your own seme. If you don't notice it, that may be that you're not paying attention to the right things. Like others have said, noobs will often just attack without trying to make any sense of creating or looking for openings or developing any strategy. When you start working on these things seriously, I think it forces you to become aware of elements such as ki, but if you only absorbed in yourself, what you are trying to accomplish, you cannot notice what others are doing. If you ever did aikido or judo, there might be a time when you did a throw so correctly that it felt like the other person's weight was easy to manipulate and cost you almost no effort. That also is a manifestation of ki. I used to tutor math during college. I recall one time when I walked into the room and one student immediately stood out to me, even though he wasn't doing anything but looking at his textbook. There was a very intense feel about him and the other tutors didn't even want to approach him to see if he needed help. Not many people have that kind of presence but when you meet someone like that, you can't help but notice. I think that is also ki even though it's not quite the same feeling as the ki you experience in martial arts.

Oh I know what you are talking about now. I have practiced Zen Buddhism (lots of meditation) and my Zen teacher sort of... well lets just say it REALLY is there. Many if not most really experienced Zen teachers that I have seen have "it" that just...flows from them sort of. When I first met my Zen teacher it's what really caught my eye so to speak and it's why I decided to be his student. Uhh my Kendo sensei's "it" is different I guess but there's something there too. Wow now I feel like I'm sounding crazy...

also I know what you mean about the it feels just right thing (aikido and judo). Although I haven't really done either for any real length of time, I used to do jujitsu as a part of kempo which is basically very similar to aikido techniques. (Later I took a couple of classes in Aikido and in addition to Aikido being boring, part of the problem was that it was very similar to stuff I already learned; Although I was learning new stuff even in Aikido it was still too easy because I had done similar stuff before so I understood the concepts too easily.) I also took a couple classes in tai chi but I didnt do that for any real length of time either. Anyway I think I know what you are saying.

I do have quite a tendency to just want to strike. I really don't pay attention much actually... but also I guess I just feel sort of overwhelmed with trying to keep up physically that it's sort of hard to consciously pay attention to that. And I just want to strike. >.< I think I've mentioned this, but sometimes I want to uhh, err nevermind it's too embarrassing. Ok! I've impaled myself sometimes cause I just wanted to attack rather than a) pay attention to the fact that the other person's kamae is close to perfect and I will get impaled (I can totally tell, I just uh, don't always notice...) and b) figure out how to get passed that.

[UnimportantHero]

I've impaled myself sometimes cause I just wanted to attack rather than a) pay attention to the fact that the other person's kamae is close to perfect and I will get impaled (I can totally tell, I just uh, don't always notice...) and b) figure out how to get passed that.

I think you answered B with A.

You can get past it when you prioritize paying attention to your opponent over the desire to attack. I have not yet begun Kendo (sigh... still no word from the Yamakage Dojo ... looks like I will just need to make the longer trek to Ito Dojo in Arvada...) but that little bit seems to pretty much be Important Step Number One in any solid combat technique.

[Semmler]

Shortly later, he goes on to add: "The sensation of ki is intensified when speculative self-consciousness is pushed into the background. This happens to varying degrees depending on how much people are willing to let go of their ego in deferring to what surrounds them. If ego is reinforced, the sensation of ki diminishes."

I'm not quite sure what is mean by this. Does the author mean that people need to listen/feel what is going on around them? By pushing self-consciousness in the background, you aren't supposed to feel what is going on in your own body? If it is the later, that seems counter intuitive to what you are supposed to be working on in ki development exercises, such as karate's sanchin, Tohei's Ki-society tests etc.

In my opinion, what the author means is that your goal is to close off your mind from the body, to experience mushin, and be completely rooted in the now. By pushing-away your mind, your ego, the constant chatter of your thoughts, you are no longer distracted from what your body is telling you, from what is happening all throughout the space surrounding your opponent and you. You are fully present in the moment, and can react instantly to any event.

If you want, watch the documentary on Eiga Naoki, in the Japan Championship match between him and Miyazaki, his description of his state of mind and body when he executed men-nuki-kote to win the match, is what I'm trying to convey with the paragraph above.

In my opinion, Ki is a direct extension of a person's presence, their state of mushin. The quieter your mind, the more sensitive you become to your ki as well as your opponent's. For example, when I face my sensei, his presence feels like a pressure against my chest, I try and advance it feels like I'm moving against a stream of water pushing against my chest, I feel oppressed and heavy. And all of this without him moving a muscle, just through his kiai and his will, I'm feeling panicked and unable to attack. This for me is ki, the pressure of your opponent's presence. I feel that the physical aspects mentioned throughout the thread are all valid and play a part, but there is something else, "magical", going on too. The more you practice, and through your practice "quiet down your mind", the more attuned you become to it.

[Dan Weber]

Kendo is not a physically demanding sport,...

LOL. Really? Relative to what? Golf? Rugby? Bowling? Marathon running?



--Dan Weber

[hl1978]

The author, Tokitsu sensei, writes about this issue of ki being elusive to some people.

"In Western languages, there does not exist -- and this is one of the major difficulties for translation -- a word equivalent to ki. In Japanese this term covers various sensations and impressions that are mysterious, vague, and intangible, that touch upon something in the deepest part of our being, something that is connected with a level of insight that is probably archaic or repressed.

This difficult-to-define body of impressions is present in the experience of the everyday life, the literature, and the arts of Japan. When it is necessary to name it, people call it ki."

Shortly later, he goes on to add: "The sensation of ki is intensified when speculative self-consciousness is pushed into the background. This happens to varying degrees depending on how much people are willing to let go of their ego in deferring to what surrounds them. If ego is reinforced, the sensation of ki diminishes."

I'm borrowing a copy of this book now. The last passage makes a bit more sense if you include the lines after it which refer to listening to the body and some discussion of techniques for developing ki (no how too's so far in this book).

[Kazekoru]

I'm not exactly super-experienced in martial arts, but I've participated in a traditional form of meditation - Tai Chi - a way to control your chi, to enable your body to continue to do things others your "age" would not be able to do.

My grandmother and grandfather showed me a few things, and it's an unexplainable feeling of power in each movement. Although slow, you can still feel a "flow" of power to each part of your body.

My grandfather had once told me Tai-Chi is just a slow version of martial arts, and I decided to put it into a test - I tried it again, but faster, on one of my friends and I almost knocked him down. I did miniscule movements and I was able to [not literally] throw a guy about twice my weight, two feet back.

Chi[ki in Japanese] is not something that can be seen, nor taught, but it's something you grow up hearing about in a Chinese family. Eating [so and so] makes your "hot air" [Literal translation] rise, and therefore your body is in worse condition.

Chi = "this mysterious hot air"
"more hot air" = "bad Chi"
"Bad Chi" = "You feel bad" and so on. There's no real western medical term to define "hot air", but the Chinese know it, and they know it very well. Avoid eating tons of salty food, things that are deep fried, etc.

[Charlie]

bump to accompany another thread on the subject