TSUKI Datotsu-bu (quick reference)?

[tango]

Is this correct? Having a brain-fart and just looking for quick reference...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gKBgEpKTvG...1600/tsuki.jpg

[AlexM]

I've never seen that distinction between different parts of the tsuki-dare. The rules listed in Kendo: The Definitive Guide states that datotsu-bui for tsuki is the "throat protector"; which I assume to mean the entire tsuki-dare.

I think the entire tsuki-dare is datotsu-bui, but I might be wrong.

[D'Artagnan]

I think you are correct Alex,

In most cases, the Datotsu-bui (I believe) is the entire tsuki-dare.

[AlexM]

I should point out that I think the spot where the tsuki-dare connects to the men is NOT datotsu-bui. On the image in question it would be the part directly above the space listed as "not-valid".

[b8amack]

Are you basing that off the big X, Tango?

[cesarekim]

On a sidenote, I wonder how many shimpan would actually have an undisturbed view of where the shinai actually hit the tsukidare. If you hit the genereal area and not the men frame itself, I guess most people would give the ippon based on the usual factors of opportunity and execution regardless of the impact zone...

[tango]

@b8amack -- yes, basing it off the X .... could just as easily have used a picture of a tsukidare with an embroidery-type section that typically matches the mune.

@cesare --- I completely agree with you... so I'm not sure how much of a big deal it is.

I also had a gut feeling that the whole thing was datotsu-bu, but then when I was doing the photo editing, I marked just the lower part as the datotsu-bu. ....After I posted the thing on our club blog, I was having second thoughts and so, that's how I wound up coming here to ask the question.

EDIT: http://beginningkendo.blogspot.com/2...ng-points.html
That's the thing I was working on yesterday for our blog. Feedback is welcome, by the way... and I might also ask that folks take a close look at the valid striking area for dou... whether or not you guys think the striking area on the sides ought to be a little larger or what...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well the way you've got those lines drawn it's hard to tell. For kote you've designated some sub-section of the area - the whole barrel of the kote is valid. For doh it should be anywhere along the doh-dai.

Of course if we want to get into what's actually called....

[tango]

Well the way you've got those lines drawn it's hard to tell. For kote you've designated some sub-section of the area - the whole barrel of the kote is valid.

With the kote, I was just trying to indicate that the kote head is not valid...
Did I not indicate the "whole barrel" in green? (or are you saying that I've included in the 'valid' area part of the kote head? ...my monitor resolution isn't that great and the picture was kinda dark, so it's hard for me to see precisely)

For doh it should be anywhere along the doh-dai.

Of course if we want to get into what's actually called....

If it's anywhere along the dou-dai, why are "we" always saying "you can't score dou by hitting scross the front"??
...Or... is that the point you're making? Technically, the entire dou-dai is datotsu-bu, but in reality, we only count ippon when (initial) contact is made to the sides?

[AlexM]

EDIT: http://beginningkendo.blogspot.com/2...ng-points.html
That's the thing I was working on yesterday for our blog. Feedback is welcome, by the way... and I might also ask that folks take a close look at the valid striking area for dou... whether or not you guys think the striking area on the sides ought to be a little larger or what...

I thought everything looked fine in your pics with the exception of the tsuki-dare. I'm reasonably sure that the entire tsuki-dare is valid as a target.

It's actually very well done. Although you could have indicated that gyaku-dou is also a valid target against chudan (as you did with jodan and nito).

The dou pics looked fine as well. I have to say that I've never heard of the front portion of the dou being valid: Sides only.

[tango]

Alex --- I actually did mention that "hidari dou" is valid, but I just didn't have enough visible space to indicate it... I mentioned it down in the "ATTENTION" note under the chudan thing...

thanks for the compliment... trying to spruce up the beginner's section of the blog since it's been kinda ignored for a little while..

[tango]

also, please excuse my incorrect use of datotsu-bu vs. datotsu-bui ....
i'm always having to go back and edit my stuff on the blog.. heh

[tango]

have changed the tsuki diagram to this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gKBgEpKTvG...600/tsuki3.jpg

haven't been able to really nail this down just yet, but the more i think about it, the more I'm agreeing with you guys. .....

thanks for the responses..

[Halcyon]

Feedback is welcome, by the way... and I might also ask that folks take a close look at the valid striking area for dou... whether or not you guys think the striking area on the sides ought to be a little larger or what...

Good stuff. I might be a bit more generous with the valid striking area for dou, but since it's a guide for beginners, it might be better to leave it as it is and be a bit more stringent so they understand what they should be aiming for in theory.

In the appendix of the Japanese-English Dictionary of Kendo published by the AJKF, there's a section on striking zones. It names the left and right sides of the dou as valid targets, but doesn't really specify how large they are. I think this is one of those things that become apparent with experience. It's like pornography -- hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have to say that I've never heard of the front portion of the dou being valid: Sides only.

You are correct. The rules define the target as "the left and right sides of the doh" and of course that's the way we teach. The outline in the drawing was showing an even narrower area than that though.

The reality in competition is that people are moving fast, the opponent may be turning, and the judges are going a lot by sound. Look here at about 30 seconds in for the slow-mo for an illustration of what I mean. I think doh is often scored across the front.