TSUKI Datotsu-bu (quick reference)?

[tango]

Thanks guys... I thought I *could* be a little more generous in the dou diagram.. and Neil, I do understand your point. Thanks for the video link...

On a side note -- TSUKI-BU --- just happened to find my AJKF regs book (Mar 2000) and it definitely indicates the whole of the tsuki as the tsuki-bu (i.e., including the "top" part where a lot of folks have embroidery)

On another side note --- Is munezuki against jodan still NOT permitted today? I'm thinking that's the case, but I'm having trouble trying to nail THIS point down now, too...

[Halcyon]

On another side note --- Is munezuki against jodan still NOT permitted today? I'm thinking that's the case, but I'm having trouble trying to nail THIS point down now, too...

Yup. Munezuki is not a valid point against jodan. Though as a psychological deterrent against a jodan opponent, it's fair game.

[tango]

thanks, paul..

[AlexM]

You are correct. The rules define the target as "the left and right sides of the doh" and of course that's the way we teach. The outline in the drawing was showing an even narrower area than that though.

The reality in competition is that people are moving fast, the opponent may be turning, and the judges are going a lot by sound. Look here at about 30 seconds in for the slow-mo for an illustration of what I mean. I think doh is often scored across the front.

Ok, I get what you mean. Judgement call on the dou; At the shimpan's discretion and not easy to define. In the video you referred to the camera angle makes it tough to judge (being directly behind the striker takes away from the depth perception).

I like the new tsuki-dare illustration from Tango. Gives you an idea of what the tip should stop on (if it goes in any of the red sections it should technically not be ippon).

[Neil Gendzwill]

On a side note -- TSUKI-BU --- just happened to find my AJKF regs book (Mar 2000) and it definitely indicates the whole of the tsuki as the tsuki-bu (i.e., including the "top" part where a lot of folks have embroidery)

The embroidery or the "X " is the primary target, IMO. If I hit the lower part I consider that a miss for training purposes.

On another side note --- Is munezuki against jodan still NOT permitted today?

It's permitted, it's just not a point any more. Allowing munezuki was intended originally to discourage jodan players as I understand it.

[tango]

Neil, yeah.. that's what I meant to imply is that munezuki against jodan is not ippon...
And yes, my memory is the same as yours --- instituted to discourage jodan from taking over the world..

[b8amack]

The embroidery or the "X " is the primary target, IMO. If I hit the lower part I consider that a miss for training purposes.

That's what I always thought. I think of it as the sweet spot.

[yoda-waza]

You are correct. The rules define the target as "the left and right sides of the doh" and of course that's the way we teach. The outline in the drawing was showing an even narrower area than that though.

The reality in competition is that people are moving fast, the opponent may be turning, and the judges are going a lot by sound. Look here at about 30 seconds in for the slow-mo for an illustration of what I mean. I think doh is often scored across the front.

At one shinpan seminar I recall the sensei stressed that while the sides of the dou are the primary target, a dou strike may still be considered valid encompassing more area of the dou. In the case of a conventional dou uchi (as opposed to gyaku-dou), he suggested visualizing how a diagonal cut would move through the torso when struck while moving forward and to the opposite side of the cut - the blade movement is not just downward left-to-right but also moving forward. This might correspond to an area of the dou between the extreme sides and the extreme front. In relation to Tango's diagram that might suggest the "sides" encompass a broader area of dou just as Neil remarked, perhaps as much as a third of the dou-dai, the areas outside the center portion below the dou-mune.

[Riku(陸）]

It's like pornography -- hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

Senpai... lol

[b8amack]

You are correct. The rules define the target as "the left and right sides of the doh" and of course that's the way we teach. The outline in the drawing was showing an even narrower area than that though.

The reality in competition is that people are moving fast, the opponent may be turning, and the judges are going a lot by sound. Look here at about 30 seconds in for the slow-mo for an illustration of what I mean. I think doh is often scored across the front.

I've switched dojo recently. My new instructor spent most of today telling us that the front of the dou is actually the best spot (제일좋은것, were his exact words) to hit, as the sides of the dou often result in a shallow cut, which can skid off/across and cost you the point (and, more importantly, look sloppy), whereas a good hit to the center, struck with the upper-middle of the shinai, will naturally wrap to the side on impact. (This is my 75% comprehension of rapid explanation in Korean. Gotta hit those books some more!)

Not the way I was originally taught, but he's hachidan, so I'll be taking his word for it. Certainly, when he demonstrated, they were beautiful dou cuts. I'm not even sure if he actually said that the shinai wraps, or I just noticed that from watching the cut. He wasn't striking with any incredible force to make the shinai bend, either.