Do you collect waza for your toolbox, or figure out how to make the waza work?

[hl1978]

For my first 11 years or so in various martial arts, I was a waza collector, looking at each waza as being of use for a particular scenario, a counter to a counter etc. My approach was to layer chains of techniques together trying to overwhelm my opponent with speed and through better technique. I also collected techniques/katas etc to keep my self interested.

I did notice however that more advanced people in most martial arts occasionally used more unusual techniques from time to time for fun or to unbalance a more challenging opponent, but basically "won" through use of simple techniques.

About 5-6 years ago, my approach changed as a result of meeting some interesting people in Japan (not going into that on this thread) and instead of collecting waza, I instead focused on how to make the waza work. One could take this approach through study of seme in kendo, or focusing on body mechanics amongst other approaches. If I had it to do all over ago again I wish someone had guided me towards the second approach much earlier on or had explicitly told me what I was supposed to be doing/feeling etc in basic exercises in karate, aikido, kendo/iaido etc instead of fumbling around on my own.

What is your approach and why?

[JByrd]

I think we all take both approaches at once, collecting, and refining.

We have to learn the timing, distance, and mechanics of a technique first, with a compliant receiver. Then we can start figuring out the logic of how to make it work in actual free combat. I think making a technique work requires only a moderate proficiency with the technique itself. The big part is mastering the creation/recognition of the situation that makes the technique's success possible, i.e., the logic of it (riai).

Once we get the knack of recognizing and creating opportunity, a whole new world of possibility opens up. The nature of the battle fundamentally changes to one where the winner will be the person who can gain an opportunity to strike, while preventing the opponent from gaining such an opportunity. It seems to me that if I can begin my attack by making a very good chance to hit, a simple men uchi will most often finish the job quite well. At my level, I am just beginning to peek through that veil.

Basically, I think I am just repeating what Arthur (hyuna) recently said so well in another thread: We are not fighting a weapon or a technique, but a person. To me, a true victory is one where I can coerce an individual person, with all his capabilities, weaknesses, habits, and preferences, into a situation where I can hit him with an ordinary swing. In that situation, the technique really is the easy part.

[sirius1906]

I am not a waza collector because:
1) I only know a few at my level
2) I want be good at a few things rather than suck at many things
3) the real reason is I am just really boring.

[turboyoshi]

I think waza collectors are usually young people, who have this idea that they should know different waza to handle different scenarios. What it really represents is that a person has not progressed enough to the point where they can understand that you don't need to know many different techniques but rather that you should be able to apply the same technique to many different scenarios. This is a primarily a matter of maturity, a phase that everyone needs to go through.

hl1978, you might have wished for someone to point this out to you earlier in your MA career but the truth is, you probably heard advice like this before and weren't at the point where you were ready to accept it. I know I wasn't when I was younger, although my shotokan sensei did tell me things like this in a few different ways. All your popular anime/comic book heroes have mastered 8 different martial arts and experts with 200 different weapons etc etc. It's why Jeet Kune Do/MMA/BJJ dojos are always popular, it appeals to a more naive, childish logic. It takes a certain amount of experience to get past this misunderstanding, it's not an intuitive concept. It's not a conclusion an inexperienced person could arrive at with pure logic. You have to have put the time in and gained the experiences it takes to understand that yes, you can win with a simple technique against many different types of opponents.

When I was younger I remember struggling to make sense of why there were so many different martial arts and how could one claim to be "better" than another, and was i really studying the style I should be. I eventually came to the conclusion that there were different arts for different body types and personalities and what it meant to make an art your own was to use the techniques and strategies that comply best with you, mentally and physically. It was this realization that made me accept that any art was just as good as any other, and my own attitude in studying it would make the difference as to whether I could be successful with it or not. I stopped believing I had to master every technique or kata in the shotokan curriculum, I just needed to stick to the things that worked best for me and apply them more skillfully.

Compared to most martial arts, I think kendo makes this lesson more apparent because it generally only allow you to use 4 targets and there are a much more limited number of ways to strike them. No dragon tornado punch or thunder lightning kicks, no special "glow" or whatever else you want to throw in there to make the kids think you're doing something really cool.

[Josh Reyer]

In Shinkage-ryu, there are essentially only three "waza". Straight cut, cut left to right, and cut right to left. The key is to then learn to use each one, from any position, as the situation dictates. So I pretty much maxed out my waza collection on day 2.

[pgsmith]

So many people like to collect waza simply because they don't understand the purpose of waza. Waza are there simply as training tools to help a person achieve the proper body alignment, foot motion, hand motion, etc ... that is required by that particular martial art. It's the reason that so many "modern" martial arts are garbageola, because they are started and run by people that have strung together a bunch of waza without understanding what they are really for.
I always use the analogy of the speed bag. Every single boxer that has ever stepped into a ring has practiced on a speed bag. A speed bag is strictly to improve a couple of facets of the boxer's repertoire. There's no point in any boxing match where a boxer will say to himself "now I'll use "The Speebag Technique". Waza are simply speedbags. They are designed to improve particular aspects of your movement, not to grant you a special "technique" to use. That's the reason that the fun part is learning the waza, and the hard part (that takes the rest of your life!) is in trying to perform them correctly.

[ben]

In Shinkage-ryu, there are essentially only three "waza". Straight cut, cut left to right, and cut right to left. The key is to then learn to use each one, from any position, as the situation dictates. So I pretty much maxed out my waza collection on day 2.

Tatsumi Ryu only has two, 向 and 円. Beat that Yagyu guy! hehe!

Seriously though, enkorat's post on the "Underestimating Kendo" thread was a good one for pointing out that fallacy that more=more in MA. And hl1978's OP above echoes his experience. Interestingly, both had prior experience in empty-hand arts. I believe empty-hand combat arts have a much greater propensity for amassing waza, mainly because a real fight is not only a possibility (as opposed to shinken shobu, which is not), but it is likely to go on much longer than combat with edged weapons. Therefore there is some logic to, "if enemy does x, self does y and then z. If enemy then slips z and offers w, self counters with v", and so on ad infinitum. This one difference is the beginning of two completely divergent world-views which few MAists appreciate. Armed and unarmed MAists really speak completely different languages, usually without realising.

Now there are exceptions. TSKSR kata offer a string of options in each kata, and someone like Akuzawa (there I said it!) might focus on fundamentals rather than specifics, but generally I think they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

Getting back to kendo though, I'm of the "Itto" mindset, i.e. all cuts ultimately derive from shomen. Personally I believe that if you see all cuts in this way, then you only have to perfect one, which then becomes applicable to all situations. I'm not saying that it's a case of "if all you've got is a hammer then all your problems look like nails"... hang on. Maybe I am! Anyway, kote and do are not that far removed from men. And a calm yet attacking mind is capable of perceiving and adjusting to different maai and sen. Not so far removed from Hunter Armstrong's, "one mind, any weapon." b

[b8amack]

Proud collector of waza, although I don't know how you can learn a waza without also refining it.

[G-CHAN]

[QUOTE=hl1978;423572

I did notice however that more advanced people in most martial arts occasionally used more unusual techniques from time to time for fun or to unbalance a more challenging opponent, but basically "won" through use of simple techniques.[/QUOTE]

Hello hl

Very nice discussion. I think what you've described here is what every kendoka is trying to achieve. IMHO, you don't need to know 1001 waza to do this. I think Enkorat was right on.

Since there are limited targets in kendo, the key to "unbalancing" the aite is to have a good understanding on how specific waza works and how it affects the aite.

I think the most important waza to know how to execute is harai and osae because...

1. It's the safest way to initiate an attack without the fear of being countered. (even though I have been countered, but i won't discuss it here)

2. It's a very good way to create opportunities because it magnifies everything. What better way is there to "unbalance" the aite if he knows you're proficient at cutting through his center?

What this does for me is that it makes my men, kote and doh more effective and increases my chance to use oji waza.

3. The most important factor for me is that it makes it easier to read the aite. (sen)

The better you are at executing waza, the bigger threat you are to the aite which increases your ability to read the aite.

Good luck.

[Are2]

Now there are exceptions. TSKSR kata offer a string of options in each kata

Not really, each technique is meant to be decisive (and most are just striking the nearest or easiest vulnerable point), they are just strung together for practice. Just like a bunch of "normal" kata combined to a long über-kata, with some changes to, for example, targeting and distancing (like striking the sword instead of the neck) to allow continuous performance. So no exception there