Kendo Kata Nanahon me - wakigamae or not?

[Trent]

At a recent Taikai, I saw all uchidachi, while doing nanahonme, assume waki-gamae following the cut to shidachi's head.

In contrast to this, on ZenKenRen's youtube profile AND in Kendo: The difinitive guide by Ozawa sensei, both demonstrate that from the cut, it is a straight raise to kamae (i.e. no wakigamae).

I am fairly certain that the latter is correct, but what does everyone else practice?

Thanks

[Tsunemori]

I think the uchidachi goes *through* waki-gamae, but not actually stopping at it. Just like in yonhonme where both kenshi attack through jodan-no-kamae but not actually stopping at the stance.

[Trent]

Yeah, that is what I thought as well. Probably the best answer, that they pass through the kamae, rather than pause there...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Really depends on which sensei is teaching it. The older style had quite the pause there, these days it's more of a transition thing but there is still slight but noticeable pause before moving into chudan.

[TheJRK]

I was taught to pause there as well... and my sensei was very old school. It wasn't until I switched to another dojo that someone told me to just pass through wakigamae. It's a little difficult for me since I was doing it the first way for such a long time.

Also in yonhonme, I was taught to bring the shinai directly from chudan no kamae to wakigamae by swing the shinai in a big arcing motion latterally (parallel to the floor). Later someone told me to bring the shinai from chudan, up to almost hasso position and then down to wakigamae.

There are other examples but I don't want to hijack this thread more than I already have.

[rfoxmich]

The one constant about the kendo kata are that it changes. Evolves?

[dwez]

Funnily enough of the three videos I have downloaded none really turn to waki-gamae including the one titled pre-war kendo kata. They all pretty much pause momentarily after the cut and then turn and assume chudan via jodan [or over the top if you catch my drift].

Most important you check these things at a grading so you know what that particular grading panel is looking for.

[LowFatMat]

We pause in waki gamae (or something close to it), but then we pause briefly in jodan too, which also seems not to be the done thing at the moment. I have unfashionable kata :-(

[hl1978]

I've been taught at various times both variations. What is the logic for going into or pausing in wakigamae? To be honest I am not sure, but here are some questions or thoughts as to why you would or would not be transitioning through wakigamae. It might just be a stylistic difference at this point, but surely someone made a logical argument for the change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fx5Ts9i-MM shows one instructional video demonstrating this transition around 3:20 This mirrors what I was taught at one point for both uchidachi and shidachi. perhaps this extra movement is a way to sync up both practicioners instead of one preforming a movement while the other does not?
Is the pause to demonstrate zanshin? You are already looking at your opponent after you step through and complete the cut, I am unsure how this would express zanshin more so with this extra movement.
You aren't pulling the sword out of someone since you "lost", so I don't see the need to preform the mechanics like one would in ZNKR seitei #6/8. On the otherhand passing through wakigamae can be a way to train an alternate method of under the sword instead of raising with the arms. This might be a leftover artifact, but you step back along the same direction as you just cut, therefore this idea doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
Did one's sword break? Even if it did, the attacking portion of the kata is over. If it is to demonstrate a broken sword both people would cross swords at a different point.
When moving in a slower more stylistic manner it looks more interesting to me.

Any other thoughts?

[b8amack]

I was taught to pause (albeit briefly) in waki gamae. It's a transition, but you're still in that position. One thing I've noticed done differently is the width of the on-one-knee (don't know the Japanese term for this. Would it just be nuki do?) cut. Some schools seem to emphasize finishing really wide out there, like a matador holding a flag. Others not so much. And I've seen both at shinsa, from people I believe passed.

[LowFatMat]

I was taught to pause (albeit briefly) in waki gamae. It's a transition, but you're still in that position. One thing I've noticed done differently is the width of the on-one-knee (don't know the Japanese term for this. Would it just be nuki do?) cut. Some schools seem to emphasize finishing really wide out there, like a matador holding a flag. Others not so much. And I've seen both at shinsa, from people I believe passed.

Given that different Sensei have different versions, and that the 'official' version gets updated, I guess the precise detail of the kata is a secondary consideration to the manner in which it is performed. Knowing when to be strong and when to be contained is a harder part of kata than learning the movements.

[Halcyon]

The waki-gamae in kendo-no-kata No. 7 is similar to the waki-gamae in seitei iaido No. 10 in the sense that it is a transitional kamae used when you're reversing directions between one cut and the next.

In kendo-no-kata No. 7, you cut dou going forward, but then your opponent ends up being roughly behind you, so you need to switch directions for your zanshin. The kata are based on the premise that you're using a sword. Because the sword is heavy, it's not so easy to just whip it around, say into chudan. You'd rather assume a kamae that requires a minimal shift in the center of gravity of the sword. That's why you go into waki-gamae.

Same thing with seitei iaido No. 10, after you dispatch the third opponent with kirioroshi going one direction, your last opponent is behind you, so as you turn around, you assume waki-gamae because you can pressure that last opponent without having to whip your sword around into chudan.

Is there a pause in waki-gamae? I think the answer, simple and complex at the same time, is that it depends on the maai, both in the sense of distance and timing. If you want your kata (both in kendo and iaido) to be living and breathing things, rather than just a choreographed dance, then you have to pay attention to what the opponent (real or imaginary) is doing.

[R Stroud]

In ZNKR seite iai kata #10, the motion made between the back right opponent as you step to the final cut to the left front opponent, includes a transition thru wakigame but without any pause. The check point in the ZKR manual states the following, which focuses on the point to NOT stop in wakigamae as you make the transition.

4) 脇構えを取ってからではなく、脇構えになりながら振りかぶっているか。
Is furikaburi assumed without pausing at wakigamae, instead of after assuming wakigamae?

Regarding the Uchitachi, in the ZNKR kendo kata #7, the Uchitachi moves from the big cut forward to jodan facing shitachi, by looking at the shitachi first NOT by making wakigamae. The ZNKR book 剣道社会体育教本（改訂版） "Textbook for Kendo Public Physical Education" published in 2009, explains this on page 145, under the check points as follows.

7) 打太刀は上体を起こしながら、刀を振りかぶり正対するとき、脇構えにならないように注意する。
Facing along the original line the Uchitachi uses their upper body to bring the sword into Furikaburi position, being careful to avoid wakigamae.

In the supporting photo images, the zanshin for the shitachi is shown with the SHItachi making wakigamae. The uchitachi's body (hips) are still facing on the original line, and the sword is forward in the just finished cutting position. From there it is a simple transition up to Jodan

[R Stroud]

This Youtube video from ZNKR shows the transition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBbfMIYPu2I

At about 2:05 into the video they show that wakigamae is NOT correct, and besides stating such in Japanese have put a big RED X on the aforementioned wakigamae.

At about 2:17 they state and then show that this is the correct method.

[Halcyon]

Ah, brain fart. We're talking about whether uchidachi goes into waki-gamae after missing men strike, not shidachi after dou strike. Certainly not waki-gamae for uchidachi.